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Normajean Yates (2009-04-15)
shortest possible bigchess checkmates?
Experienced bigchess players please respond!
What are the shortest checkmates in bigchess, for white and for black (e.g. in 'normal' 8x8 chess they are the "fool's mates" - 3 moves = 5 half-moves for white; 2 moves = 4-half-moves for black..)
So which are the bigchess "fool's mates" (shortest mates)?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-04-15 13:48:07)
shortest possible bigchess checkmates
Good question & good idea to develop the bigchess theory :)
I don't know, no time to think about it today but it may be not so easy to do it in less than the obvious 11 half-moves checkmate for White.
William Taylor (2009-04-15 15:24:11)
shortest possible bigchess checkmates
I like the 13 half-move mate where black pushes an edge pawn or something while white hops his knight all the way over to l15. :) May have a lookk for other ones later.
Normajean Yates (2009-04-15 21:22:03)
11 half-moves: decent uper bound..
Thanks for the posts so far - So, we made progress (in the pure math sense) - we have a 'small enough' upper bound now - 11 half-moves for white, so by symmetry 12 (or 10?) half moves for black...
I can't say 12 or 10 (above) because I havent though about the answer at all - the question came to mind; I posted it; went to sleep... will think later..
Normajean Yates (2009-04-26 18:11:42)
I think Thib's IS the shortest...
To spell it out, white moves Nh2-j4-h6-j8-h10-j12, while black helps by g15-g14,Nj15-h13-g15,Ng16-j15, (and one irrelevant move e.g. moving an edge pawn). That is 5 moves ['half-moves'] by each side, and the 11th half-move is white's Nj12xh14 mate (the black K is smothered and the h14-pawn is unprotected).
You need five [half-]moves for a N to reach the opposite king; so: black can mate white (helpmate ie white co-operates) in 10 half-moves.
Philip Roe (2009-04-27 20:32:11)
1. e2-e4 m15-m13 2. Bf1-a6 Bl16-n14 3. Nj2-h4 j14-j13 4. Qh1-k3 helps 5. Qk3xk13 mate
with many minor variations.
Normajean Yates (2009-04-28 12:25:12)
PhilipRoe+SophieLeClerc - wonderful!
PhilipRoe+SophieLeClerc (Sophie should get joint credit I think because she first posted in 'international chat' (2009-04-16 08:31:15-25) that a Q+N mate would be even shorter) - that's wonderful - congratulations!
But Sophie had posted that 'it can be done in 8 half-moves with the Q and N' (she didn't give the line). Philip's line, if reversed so that *black* checkmates white, will need 10 half-moves because the mating side in this process needs to free the f-Bishop, free the Q, move the f-bishop once and move the Q twice - a total of 5 [half-]moves. So if black mates by Roe's method it on black's 5th move - which means 10 half-moves.
So, is there a shorter way [specially, with *black* mating]?
Waiting for more posts..
Philip Roe (2009-04-28 19:50:26)
Thanks for the appreciation, Normajean
I hadn't seen Sophies post. Do you have a line, Sophie? The knight looks awfully slow! Perhaps Big Chess needs Big Knights.
Normajean Yates (2009-04-29 00:53:19)
Philip, Sophie posted in the chat..
not the forums - I am not sure she has noticed this thread. Perhaps we should send a message to her and/or post in the international chat - ok, I'll do the latter.
Normajean Yates (2009-04-29 13:39:24)
sorry: correction: sophie said Q+B!
I typed Q+N but I was thinking of Q+B which is what Sophie leclerc had posted: I was slightly puzzled by Philip's reference to Knights in this context and I just realised I must have mistyped 'N' for 'B'; saw that I *had* ! :(
Sorry for the confusion, the misquotation and the inconvenience...
Sophie Leclerc (2009-05-01 01:23:07)
While I thanks for the credits, I'll tell you that I am not a woman, ( why i have that name, you doN,t want to know kay. I got a wrong name, but I like it. )
I saw to real way for black to check mate white. But to get a queen take the weak pawn. And white does it faster.
1 e4 j13 2.Ba6 h14 3. Nh4 m14 4. Qk3 Bm15 5. Qxk5 mate. was the lines I poster in the internationnal chat. ( I am not a girl. )
Normajean Yates (2009-05-01 04:06:00)
sorry+thanks Sophie - but: its still 9..
but it is still 9 [half-]moves because the mate is on white's 5th move, so 5 white-moves + 4 black-moves, = 9 [half-]moves.
If you see, yours and Philip's solutions are essentially minor variants of each other...
In Sophie's solution, 2..h14 is of couse an easily repaired mistype [2..h14 is not possible, you see]- one can just replace it by say 2..a14.
Normajean Yates (2009-05-01 04:18:45)
Sphie's soln is a tad more interesting..
arguably. Because, the L16-B instead of moving away, comes to k15 to be captured..
Interestingly, (very minor point) both Philip and Sophie mistype the checkmating move 5.Q(k3)xk15 mate: Philip gives 5.Qk3xk13, Sophie gives 5.Qxk5... (I just noticed it because I was reading what was meant, not what was written..)
Finally, by 'she' I meant 'she or he': I sometimes do...
Philip Roe (2009-05-01 04:49:32)
We should all be so lucky..
to have readers who read what we mean and not what we write!
Sophie Leclerc (2009-05-01 05:09:37)
I am man....
The presence of knight around the king protect him from worst idiocy, I don,t think a lone queen can mate sooner
Normajean Yates (2009-05-01 07:10:41)
yes this (9 [half-]moves seems shortest.
I agree, doesnt look like it can be done sooner..
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