is mirroring moves legal on ficgs


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Normajean Yates    (2008-07-15)
is mirroring moves legal on ficgs?

suppose I am playing a tournament. I need only 1 point [1/2=draw,1=win]. in one game I am white. In another game I am black.

In the game where I am black, I wait for opp to move, say move w1. Then in the game where I am white, I make the move w1, then I wait for opp's reply, say b1. Now in the game where I am black I move b1. And so on..

So i am guranteed exactly 1 point (1/2+1/2 = 1 + 0 = 0+1 = 1).

Is this legal? If not, by which rule?


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-07-15 09:16:50)
Good idea!

We could use it, especially in Thematic Tournament!

Hannes Rada    (2008-07-15 19:07:00)
Learning effect ??

I suppose you are here to improve your chess ability. For this purpose a mirroring moves - strategy seems to be useless ....

Michael Sharland    (2008-07-15 20:12:15)
Wouldn't work anyway

If your opponent wanted to stop you they could just push you up against the time limit on one of the games as the mirroring player would always use at least a little more time than the opponent. Once the player has to pick a move, the opponent can diverge. Each player would than have a big time advantage in one game but that wouldn't be a big deal at these controls. Only a vacation balance advantage would allow this idea to still work against determined opposition. Usually, a better stategy is to diverge at the point where you can play a significantly better move than the opponent used and try and win at least one of the games while holding the other.

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-07-16 00:32:46)
Mirroring moves

Mirroring moves is (of course) strictly forbidden, rule 11.3 [end] :

"It's strictly forbidden to play simultaneously the same game with black on a board and white on the other, against two different players or the same one, playing black moves like the opponent in the game with white and playing white moves like the opponent in the game with black."

Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-07-16 17:33:20)
Thibault: From which move on ...

... does this rule work???

Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-07-16 20:32:14)
Cannot work ....

.... within opening theory - this could be more than 20 moves in a game!

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-07-16 23:12:46)
Mirroring moves

This rule work from move 1 (let's say move 5 :)) .. it can be verified within the site by examining the date of each move.

Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2008-07-17 00:42:45)
Mirroring moves

Hello Thibault,

I think it is not possible to decide if a player mirrors moves ("plays simultaneously the same game ...") in two games before the two games have been finished.


Don Groves    (2008-07-17 01:23:30)

But how do you mirror a check?

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-07-17 02:36:56)
Mirroring moves

If you understand well how mirroring moves are done, it is very (very very..) unlikely that all moves dates prove it by coincidence in a whole game... Maybe 3 or 4 consecutive moves are possible in the opening, no more.

It is possible to mirror any move, so check or checkmate.

Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-07-17 04:57:26)
In example ....

... Both players of a match decide to play Sveshnikov with white and black, so it is normal that the first 8 moves are mirrored, may be that both players decide to play a special way in this opening with white and black, it can be that 20 moves are mirrored. Where is the problem? What can be wrong?

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-07-17 06:34:33)
Mirroring moves

Hi Wolfgang,

Your example is ok but you do not take account of the date of each move... Even in Sveshnikov (let's say until move 16) there's a difference between playing the same opening and mirroring moves !

BTW, do you live in New-Zealand too ? :)

Normajean Yates    (2008-07-17 07:09:32)
It was a hypothetical question!

Thibault has thought of everything! (like a lawyer)

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-07-17 14:07:45)

Just trying...

Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-07-17 16:03:58)
May be I'm a fool ....

...., but what is the simple difference between playing the same opening with black and white over 10 and more moves and MIRRORING? When is ending the first and when beginning the second?

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-07-17 18:42:37)
Mirroring moves

Let's say you (player A) play B with White on board 1 and play C with Black on board 2 :

Case 1 : C plays 1.e4 on board 2, then you play 1.e4 on board 1, B plays 1...e5 on board 1, you play 1...e5 on board 2 and so on... this is mirroring.

Case 2 : You play 1.e4 on board 1, then C plays 1.e4 on board 2, you play 1...e5 on board 2, B plays 1...e5 on board 1 and so on... this is not mirroring.

The dates of the moves say it all.

Normajean Yates    (2008-07-17 23:48:15)
and this takes the cake!

rule 11.2 - last paragraph: <<The rules assume that FICGS referees have the necessary competence, sound judgement and absolute objectivity. Too detailed a rule might deprive the arbiter of his freedom of judgement and thus prevent him from finding the solution to a problem dictated by fairness, logic and special factors. FICGS appeals to all its members to accept this view.>>

You see,even if you find 'loopholes' in La Code Tibault, you come against the above! :)

Andrew Stephenson    (2008-07-18 04:55:03)
Mirror mirror on the wall

To put Thibaults explanation another way: the person doing the mirroring aleays plays his moves after the other other person. So after a while you can see who is the real player and who is the reflection. Thibault has a system of rules that are very open and liberal but there are limits. For example at FICGS it is allowed to discuss a game that is not yet finished!