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Back to forum Normajean Yates (20081215) how about a fun thematic with foll pos starting position: RNBQKBNR/PPPPPPPP/8/8/8/8/pppppppp/rnbqkbnr. [this is offered on fics i.e. freechess.org as 'chess wild5'] Note that all pawns of both sides are ready to promote, but because of selfblockade the only legal first moves are knight moves! Engines fluctuate wildly on this because they are not designed for such positions! Ilmars Cirulis (20081216 11:17:57) Foll pos 1.Nc6 Nf3 2.Nb4 Ne5 3.b8Q Interesting... Do you agree to play with black (just one demonstration game in forum posts)? :) Thibault de Vassal (20081216 11:18:59) Wild chess Good idea, we may try such thematics soon :) But I have to find a line leading to this position..... Ilmars Cirulis (20081216 11:20:02) 2 Thibault Imho, it is impossible to find such line. Normajean Yates (20081216 15:39:59) no no it is legally reachable.. This is much easier to reach than many much more impossiblelooking positions. If I gave it to one person who plays on chess.com and fics, he would give a proofgame in 10 minutes: [the 16queens matein4 problem i posted a few months back  see problems  he gave a proof game in 10 minutes. Then I asked him to construct a position with 18 Qs, he did it in 5 more minutes.] But I have had severe political differences with him  I am not on talking terms with him now. The trick is do not try retroanalysis. construct from the beginning! Normajean Yates (20081216 15:42:19) btw the 16 Qs pos and the 18 Qs pos: I posted the proof games in the newsgroup rec.games.chess.* [I forgot what * is, just do a google group seach with rec.games.chess.* ]  early this year I think: with due credit to that person. Normajean Yates (20081216 15:47:26) llmars I agree to play as black, ok. But I am going home on yearend vacation (and also chess vacation!) I am posting and old rebel10 v rebel10 game in the next post. Normajean Yates (20081216 15:52:54) sample game; proper starting pos... one thing: the starting position is actually RNBQKBNR/PPPPPPPP/8/8/8/8/pppppppp/rnbqkbnr w   0 1 Logically it is the same thing, but this pos makes it look like it is the standard starting position, only the board is reversed! old Rebel10 v Rebel10 sample game: 1. Nc6 Nf3 2. Nb4 Ne5 3. b8=Q Na3 4. Bb7 g1=Q 5. c8=Q b1=Q 6. Qxe5 Qxb4 7. Rb8 Bb2 8. Qh5 Qb5 9. Qh4 c1=Q 10. a8=Q Qxc8 11. Qxc8 Rc1 12. Bc6 Qxc6 13. Qaxc6 Rxc6 14. Qxc6 Qc1 15. Rc8 Qxc6 16. Rxc6 Bg2 17. Re6 a1=Q 18. Nf6 Bxf6 19. Rxf6 Qxf6 20. Qxf6 f1=Q 21. Qa6 d1=Q 22. g8=Q Qf4 23. Qg3+ Qxg3 24. Qa5+ Kf1 25. Bg7 Qxd7+ 26. Kxd7 Qd3+ 27. Ke8 Bc6+ 28. Kf8 Qxg7+ 29. Kxg7 Qd4+ 30. Kg6 Rg1+ 31. Qg5 Be4+ 32. Kh5 h1=Q+ 33. Qh4 Qf3+ 34. Qg4 Qxg4+ 35. Kh6 Qd2# 01. Ilmars Cirulis (20081216 18:02:50) To Yates Ok, how you will transform first position to second position? rnbqkbnr pppppppp ++++++++ ++++++++ ++++++++ ++++++++ PPPPPPPP RNBQKBNR RNBQKBNR PPPPPPPP ++++++++ ++++++++ ++++++++ ++++++++ pppppppp rnbqkbnr Especially I am interested in pawns. :) Ilmars Cirulis (20081216 18:03:45) About game Of course, I agree to wait. :) Normajean Yates (20081216 20:17:42) oh sorry, it is obviously impossible! Since no captures have been made, the pawns could not have legally crossed each other. you cannot even have a white pawn on e5 and a black pawn on e4 if no captures have been made. Since the position is unreachable, it must be considered a chess variant, not a 'thematic'. Normajean Yates (20081216 20:20:46) about game... (to llmars) llmars, with or without engine help? I'd prefer with engines. Meanwhile, you can discover the various "fool's mates" in this variant...  a knights will give a smothered mate if one is not careful! Ilmars Cirulis (20081217 05:47:06) re With engines. :) Normajean Yates (20081217 18:05:42) anyway, about the 16queens matein4: Svante Carl von Erichsen showed it was possible to solve without computer help: http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=problem_read&id=311 As for proof game, The foll is from my rec.games.chess.analysis post [it *was* .analysis I think  feeling too tired to search usenet] " This one is mine: 1. 4k3/qqqqqqqq/8/8/8/8/QQQQQQQQ/4K3 w   0 109: [pos. 1] White to play and mate in 4. There are no duals  only one moves mates in 4. [there is no mate in 3 or less.] Move given at end of post, with sample continuation. These two were posed by me and solved by likesforests [see fics (www.freechess.org) or chess.com] in 20 minutes total! 2. Give a proof game for pos. 1, ie Show that the position in prob. 1 is legally reachable by giving a game that leads to the position. 3. Okay, so you can reach a position where you have 16 queens on board. Can you construct a game which reaches a position with 18 queens? If so, do so! [the last part carries 99% of the credit  it is to preempt the answers "yes" and "no".  (note: these can be more conveniently viewed at chess.com in the thread "advantage of moving first  mate in 4 in symmetrical position" in the forumcategory "more puzzles")  Solution to 2: by likesforests [Event ] [Site ] [Date ..] [White likesforests] [Black likesforests] [Result 10] 1. a4 b5 2. a5 b4 3. a6 Bb7 4. axb7 Nc6 5. Na3 bxa3 6. b8=Q a2 7. Rb1 a1=Q 8. Qb3 Qa6 9. Qa2 Qb7 10. b4 a5 11. b5 a4 12. b6 Qa6 13. b7 a3 14. Qb3 a2 15. b8=Q a1=Q 16. Qh3 Q1a5 17. Qbb3 Ne5 18. Qbg3 c5 19. Rb3 c4 20. c3 cxb3 21. c4 b2 22. c5 b1=Q 23. c6 Qba2 24. c7 Qb8 25. Bb2 f6 26. Bc3 Kf7 27. c8=Q d5 28. Qc4 Nc6 29. Qch4 d4 30. d3 dxc3 31. d4 c2+ 32. Qd2 Ra7 33. f3 Q5a4 34. Kf2 c1=Q 35. d5 Qca3 36. d6 e5 37. e4 Nge7 38. d7 Kg8 39. d8=Q Qa8 40. Qb6 Nb4 41. Qbe3 Nbd5 42. exd5 e4 43. Ne2 f5 44. Qeh6 f4 45. Kg1 e3 46. Nd4 e2 47. d6 e1=Q 48. d7 Qea1 49. d8=Q Nd5 50. Nc2 Nc3 51. Ne3 fxe3 52. Qdg5 e2 53. Qdf4 e1=Q 54. Qfg4 Qeb1 55. f4 g6 56. Qc5 g5 57. f5 Bg7 58. Qgc4+ Rf7 59. f6 Bf8 60. Q5b4 g4 61. Qe5 g3 62. Qe1 Ne4 63. Qcb3 Nd2 64. Qhc4 Nf3+ 65. gxf3 g2 66. Be2 Bg7 67. Kf2 Bf8 68. Ke3 g1=Q+ 69. Kf4 Qgb6 70. Qcc3 Be7 71. Kg4 Qe6+ 72. Kg3 Rf8 73. fxe7 Rf7 74. e8=Q+ Rf8 75. Qeb5 Qf7 76. f4 Re8 77. f5 Re6 78. fxe6 Qff8 79. e7+ Qf7 80. Rf1 Qaf8 81. e8=Q Qa8 82. Qbb2 Q4a7 83. Qed2 Q3a6 84. Rf3 Q8b7 85. Qcc2 Qac4 86. Q4b3 Qad6+ 87. Kg2 Qdc7 88. Q3a2 Qce6 89. Qhe3 Qed7 90. Q8e4 Q8e7 91. Qb2b3 Qag7+ 92. Qg3 Qbb2 93. Bc4 Qbf6 94. Kf1 h5 95. Rf5 Qfxf5+ 96. Ke1 Rh6 97. Qxh6 Qfh7 98. Qhxh5 Qfxc4 99. Qee2 Qcf7 100. Qbb2 Kf8 101. Qgf2 Ke8 102. h4 Kf8 103. Qhg4 Qhxh4 104. Qgg2 Qhh7 105. Qbh5 Ke8 106. Qhh2 Qfe6 107. Qff3 Q6f6 108. Qff2 Qff7 10  solution to 3: by likesforests Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [White "likesforests"] [Black "likesforests"] [Result "10"] 1. a4 b5 2. a5 b4 3. a6 Bb7 4. axb7 Nc6 5. Na3 bxa3 6. b8=Q a2 7. Rb1 a1=Q 8. Qb3 Qa6 9. Qa2 Qb7 10. b4 a5 11. b5 a4 12. b6 Qa6 13. b7 a3 14. Qb3 a2 15. b8=Q a1=Q 16. Qh3 Q1a5 17. Qbb3 Ne5 18. Qbg3 c5 19. Rb3 c4 20. c3 cxb3 21. c4 b2 22. c5 b1=Q 23. c6 Qba2 24. c7 Qb8 25. Bb2 f6 26. Bc3 Kf7 27. c8=Q d5 28. Qc4 Nc6 29. Qch4 d4 30. d3 dxc3 31. d4 c2+ 32. Qd2 Ra7 33. f3 Q5a4 34. Kf2 c1=Q 35. d5 Qca3 36. d6 e5 37. e4 Nge7 38. d7 Kg8 39. d8=Q Qa8 40. Qb6 Nb4 41. Qbe3 Nbd5 42. exd5 e4 43. Ne2 f5 44. Qeh6 f4 45. Kg1 e3 46. Nd4 e2 47. d6 e1=Q 48. d7 Qea1 49. d8=Q Nd5 50. Nc2 Nc3 51. Ne3 fxe3 52. Qdg5 e2 53. Qdf4 e1=Q 54. Qfg4 Qeb1 55. f4 g6 56. Qc5 g5 57. f5 Bg7 58. Qgc4+ Rf7 59. f6 Bf8 60. Q5b4 g4 61. Qe5 g3 62. Qe1 Ne4 63. Qcb3 Nd2 64. Qhc4 Nf3+ 65. gxf3 g2 66. Be2 Bg7 67. Kf2 Bf8 68. Ke3 g1=Q+ 69. Kf4 Qgb6 70. Qcc3 Be7 71. Kg4 Qe6+ 72. Kg3 Rf8 73. fxe7 Rf7 74. e8=Q+ Rf8 75. Qeb5 Qf7 76. f4 Re8 77. f5 Re6 78. fxe6 Qff8 79. e7+ Qf7 80. Rf1 Qaf8 81. e8=Q Qa8 82. Qhc1 ( 82. Qbb2 Q4a7 83. Qed2 Q3a6 84. Rf3 Q8b7 85. Qcc2 Qac4 86. Q4b3 Qad6+ 87. Kg2 Qdc7 88. Q3a2 Qce6 89. Qhe3 Qed7 90. Q8e4 Q8e7 91. Qb2b3 Qag7+ 92. Qg3 Qbb2 93. Bc4 Qbf6 94. Kf1 h5 95. Rf5 Qfxf5+ 96. Ke1 Rh6 97. Qxh6 Qfh7 98. Qhxh5 Qfxc4 99. Qee2 Qcf7 100. Qbb2 Kf8 101. Qgf2 Ke8 102. h4 Kf8 103. Qhg4 Qhxh4 104. Qgg2 Qhh7 105. Qbh5 Ke8 106. Qhh2 Qfe6 107. Qff3 Q6f6 108. Qff2 Qff7 ) h5 83. Qhc8 h4+ 84. Kg4 h3 85. Bf3 Rh5 86. Bg2 hxg2 87. h3 Rh4+ 88. Kxh4 g1=Q 89. Rf6 Qga7 90. Qec6 Q8b8 91. Q8a6 Q8e7 92. Kg4 Kf8 93. h4 Qbe8 94. Rd6 Qg8+ 95. Kf3 Qbg6 96. h5 Q6g7 97. h6 Qad7 98. h7 Qa5 99. h8=Q Qdxd6 10  solution to 1: 1. Qaxf7+! Sample continuations: 1... Kd8 2. Qexe7+ Kc8 3. Qdxd7+ Kb8 4. Qdd8# 1... Qxf7 2. Qh8+ Qxh8 3. Qxh8+ Qf8 4. Qfxf8# "
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