getting a game annotated


getting a game annotated

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Phil Cook    (2008-08-11)
getting a game annotated

any thoughts on this? or would that slow server ?

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-11 09:30:24)
why not?

it could be done in an annotation-request forum. Someone could volunteer to annotate.

This topic began in the international-chat column, where someone said that fics ( - not ficgs) has annotation facility. Well I've been active there for 2 years [until early 2008] - it is voluntary there and in practice hardly any game gets annotated.

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-11 09:33:10)
or maybe the question is not clear to me

Exactly what do you mean, Phil and others - getting a game annotated?

Specially since this is primarily a computer-chess site so of course you dont want engine annotation. You want the sort of human annotation that engines cannot do, right?

Phil Cook    (2008-08-11 12:03:53)

Normajean,,human annotation,if possible

Philip Roe    (2008-08-11 16:25:09)
Pie in the Sky

Getting free annotations from a strong player seems a bit much to expect.

If you belong to the Internet Chess Club, and type help Services, you get a list of people willing to teach lessons or annotate games. They all charge by the hour, depending on their strength and economic situation. An IM from a third world country charges about $20 per hour. I doubt that you can do better.

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-08-11 18:03:22)
Annotated games

This feature could be interesting, but there are many ways. An idea could be to link moves from any chess game to Wikichess (but Go and Big chess don't have such a wiki), however I'll have to make it easier to enter a complete game.

Don Groves    (2008-08-11 19:02:23)
Pie in the sky

Maybe Thibault could set up payment by ePoints. Each player willing to do game analysis could post how many ePoints per game. But then, it's more work for poor Thib ;-)

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-12 02:10:55)
Okay, requestiong annnotation!

Consider this latvian fraser 'book' line:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nc6 4. Qh5+ g6 5. Nxg6 Nf6 6. Qh3 hxg6 7. Qxh8 Qe7. [yes I know it is in crisis :)]
well, opp played 8. Nc3 [which i couldnt find in any database] and I was already in serious trouble after:

8...fxe4 9. Be2 Nd4 10. O-O.

Cant see any counterplay by black.

[not on this site; and the game is in progress but has moved on a few moves beyond this point - so I am not cheating!]

Anyone care to comment on - ahem, annotate - my [black's] 8th and 9th move?

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-12 02:12:23)
btw I put this in wikichess also...

I put my prev post's line in wikichess also, so somone might care to modify it there also/instead ...

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-08-12 03:19:21)
Latvian opening

Ilmars, where is Ilmars ? :)

Phil Cook    (2008-08-12 07:34:16)
Morales Vs Cook

[Event "Single game, E4EC"] [Site ""] [Date "2008.04.22"] [Round "-"] [White "Morales, Rafael (rafafallo)"] [Black "Cook, Phil (Kiwi)"] [Result "0-1"] [WhiteElo "1078"] [BlackElo "1170"] [TimeControl "10/30"] 1. d4 {(D 00 Queeens Pawn,Chigorin varation) 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 } d5 2. Nc3 {(D 00 Queeens Pawn,Chigorin varation) 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 e6..not commonly played } e6 {(D 00 Queeens Pawn,Chigorin varation) 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 e6..not commonly played} 3. a3 {3.blocking ..Bb4} h6 4. e4 a6 5. g3 dxe4 6. Nxe4 Nf6 {3. ....... h6 4. e4 a6 5. g3 dxe4 6. Nxe4 Nf6 attemps white into another exchange} 7. Bg2 {7.Bg2 defends } Nxe4 8. Bxe4 c6 9. c4 Be7 10. d5 {7. Nxe4 8. Bxe4 c6 9. c4 Be7 10. d5 (white here,trying to open the middle up) so black attacks} cxd5 11. cxd5 O-O 12. dxe6 {12.dxe6,,(black gives up a pawn or does he)} Qxd1+ 13. Kxd1 Rd8+ 14. Bd2 fxe6 {12. dxe6 Qxd1+ 13. Kxd1 Rd8+ 14. Bd2 fxe6(wins the pawn back,has white in disarray here)} 15. Nf3 Bf6 16. Rb1 Nd7 17. b4 Ne5 18. Ke2 Nxf3 19. Bxf3 {15. Nf3 Bf6 16. Rb1 Nd7 17. b4 Ne5 18. Ke2 Nxf3 19. Bxf3 (note whites black bishop)} Rb8 20. a4 b5 21. a5 Bb7 22. Rbc1 Bxf3+ {19. Bxf3 Rb8 20. a4 b5 21. a5 Bb7 22. Rbc1 Bxf3(white lost contol and game from here,yet plods on)} 23. Kxf3 Rxd2 {22. Rbc1 Bxf3+ 23. Kxf3 Rxd(loss of bishop)} 24. Rc6 Rd3+ 25. Ke4 Rbd8 26. Rxe6 Rd3d6 27. Rxd6 Rxd6 28. Rc1 Rd4+ 29. Kf5 Rxb4 30. Kg6 Rg4+ 31. Kf5 Rc4 32. Rd1 Rc5+ 33. Ke4 b4 34. Rb1 Rb5 35. Rb3 Bc3 36. f4 Rxa5 37. f5 Ra3 0-1

Andrew Stephenson    (2008-08-12 08:54:10)

I dont think black has anything better than 8...fxe maybe 9...d5 is better. But Whites 8 Nc3 seems a very good strong simple move. Its strange that it has not been analysed because the position has been looked at by Nunn and Watson - but that was in the pre Rybka era. Now 3...Nc6 looks too risky at cc. So 3 Nxe5 Qf6 is the best chance. Game 18479 (ongoing) is perhaps the most that black can hope for - for some people not much fun but for latvian fans survival is a triumph!

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-12 14:52:44)
latvian-fraser 9...d5, and the R-sac

9...d5 10.d3 Kf7 11.Bg5 Bg7 may be better.. [context: latvian fraser exchange-sac line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nc6 4. Qh5+ g6 5. Nxg6 Nf6 6. Qh3 hxg6 7. Qxh8 Qe7 8. Nc3 {innovation?} fxe4 9. Be2]

Anyway the latvian fraser R-sac line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh3 fxe4 7.Nxh8 d5 8.Qb3 Bd7 is still on the cards --- real serious play goes 3. Nxe5 Qf6 anyway - pity because the poisoned pawn var, the Svedenborg, 3. ef, and 3. d4 are quite elegant...

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-12 15:32:37)
last thoughts on the latvian fraser ..

Unfortunately I dont have access to 'the Latvian Gambit Newsletter' - that journal might be a sure way to decide if 8. Nc3 is a novelty. [I checked some french and spanish sources also, but in vain...]

Andrew Stephenson    (2008-08-12 21:32:49)
No novelty

F Perez-Cruz v F Acosta 1994 correspondence Massow Memorial (1-0 32) 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Nxe5 Nc6 4 Qh5+ g6 5 Nxg6 Nf6 6 Qh3 hxg6 7 Qxh8 Qe7 8 Nc3! The game continued with Nb4 9 d4?! (9 d3 looks like an easy win) Nxe4 10 Nxe4 Qxe4+ 11 Be3 Kf7?! (had to play 11..f4 12 Bd3 Nxd3 [12 ..Qxg2 13 Qe5+ Be7 13 Be4] 13 cxd3 Qxg2 14 Rf1 d6 when he can fight on) 12 Bd3 Nxd3 13 cxd3 with a won position. If I faced this Nc6 line I would play after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Nxe5 Nc6 4 d4! (John Nunn's refutation) this squelches all blacks hopes for play. What now for black? 4..Nf6 5 Nxc6 dxc6 6 e5 which looks like a pawn odds game. I dont know.

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-13 03:43:54)
Thanks, Andrew!

Thanks that is for ALL your posts here on that latvian fraser line :) and specially the last one. So my opp narrowly missed immortality in the subfootnotes of chess history ;)

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-13 04:00:37)
well so the latvian fraser is dead..

Well it has had a long life :)

What I am sad about is Mehmoud Dervish's death during open-heart surgery last Saturday...

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-15 10:02:29)
last on latvian fraser..

um - actually I found that I *had* found Perez-Cruz v Decosta, as well as another another: Ritter Aguillar v Asensio Lisan - starting 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Nxe5 Nc6 4 Qh5+ g6 5 Nxg6 Nf6 6 Qh3 hxg6 7 Qxh8 Qe7 8 Nc3!. But both went 1-0, and I had failed to find one that *didn't* go 1-0. By the time I posted it here I forgot what it was that I had failed to find... sorry

Anyway I am glad I posted the queation because I did not know the Nunn refutation. Thanks again, Andrew!

Andrew Stephenson    (2008-08-15 18:00:45)
Nunn "refutation"

Here is a summary of the analysis after e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Nxe5 Nc6 4 d4!: a.) 4fxe4 5.Nxc6 dxc6 6.Qh5+ Ke7 b.) 4Nxd5 5.dxe5 d6 (5Qe7 6.Qd4 and White is a pawn up, threatening Nc3-d5 Nunn) 6.Bf4! Black's position flat out sucks! c.) 4Nf6 5.Nxc6 dxc6 6.e5 with a clear extra pawn. d.) 4Qh4!? 5.Nf3 Qxe4+ 6.Be2 Black's Queen is exposed eg 6Nf6 7.0-0 Be7 8.Re1 with advantage 80-0? loses to 9.Bc4+. e) 4...Qe7 is not analysed. 5 Nc3! (5 Nxc6 Qxe4+ 6 Be2 Qxc6 7 0-0 d5 8 Nc3 Kf7! and blacks not too bad) 5...fxe4 (5...Nxe5 6 Nb5!)6 Nb5 Kd8 7 Bf4 Nxe5 (7..Nf6 8 Nxc7!) 8 dxe5 and black cant develop eg Nh6 9 e6!d6 10 Qd5! In line a) 4..fxe4 5 Nxc6 Black can try bxc6!?(instead of dxc6)6 Qh5+ Ke7 planning to play Kf7 and d5. This might be the best try and although I white is better the positions are a bit unclear. After 4..fxe4 white also has 5 Bc4 d5 6 Bb5 Qd6 (6..Ne7 7 0-0 is strong) 7 c4 a6 when white will probably get the e pawn but black gets the bishop pair. So I am not now sure its a refutation!

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-15 18:32:37)
Plus a change, plus cest la mme chose

so it seems! in the 1920s or so in MCO-4 Reuben Fine dismissed the greco countergambit in 4 lines as a blunder! (this was AFTER the latvian work due to which it became later known as the latvian gambit)! So the battle rages on, even with fraser? But it does seem that the fraser exchange-sac line is dead - leaving the R-sac line.

Ilmars Cirulis    (2008-08-20 16:47:27)
Latvian gambit

I was busy. :D

Ilmars Cirulis    (2008-08-20 17:05:00)

Is Latvian Gambit still alive?!


Normajean Yates    (2008-08-21 05:25:54)
it is! llmars is on the vive-greco team

So the greco countergambit [latvian gambit] is alive, and as long as llmars is there it will stay alive:) I am not so courageous - I play it only in no-engines chess :) [although engines cannot help much in the opening - this being a *real* gambit - can they?] No, actually I *am* courageous! In the ongoing chess tournament I am playing here I did play the greco [latvian] against Taoufik - it is a pity that Taufik decided to forfeit all his games on time [incl. mine on move 5 :(] ...

Ilmars Cirulis    (2008-08-21 13:05:12)
sorry, Normajean...

I am in team "Dead LG, good LG". :D

I entered into that thematic only to found someone who will draw with black (in long time control).
For fun too, of course. :)

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-21 14:46:27)
Ilmars, you don't realise it but...

In marxian terms, *objectively* you are in the 'try to keep latvian alive' team, though 'subjectively' you think are in the opposite team :)

Because by participating in a latvian thematic, you are helping to try to keep it alive ;)

Ilmars Cirulis    (2008-08-21 15:12:17)

In marsian terms, my goal is to get to final and win all white games. And probably get first place in LG thematic. :)

Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-08-21 17:43:41)
Latvian ...

I hope I am not asking too much, but can we have a Latvian gambit thematic tournament?

Since there are good players here, after such a tournament the theory about the Latvian gambit will have to be rewritten.

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-21 21:31:44)
Rodolfo I second that proposal!

I second Rodolfo's proposal of a latvian thematic here at ficgs.

Normajean Yates    (2008-08-21 21:57:07)
Latvian thematic: white must win.

I propose a latvian thematic where white must win (ie a draw will be counted as loss for white).

Ilmars Cirulis    (2008-08-22 14:29:05)

I like that idea! :)

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-08-22 14:43:52)
Latvian thematic

Ok, we'll have another Latvian thematic tournament soon ;)

Ilmars Cirulis    (2008-08-22 15:41:19)
Another idea

... is to make two teams - defenders and refuters. :)

(I don't like to play LG with black.)

Thibault de Vassal    (2008-08-22 17:51:06)
Latvian teams

That's a very good idea ! .. So it would be created handly as a special tournament, let's try to build teams in this new thread -

Ilmars Cirulis    (2008-08-22 18:59:56)

I'm tired. Imho I completed to input almost all my "theory" of Poisoned Pawn Variation.

Imho, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bc4 fxe4 4.Nxe5 Qg5 5.d4 Qxg2 6.Qh5+ g6 7.Bf7+ Kd8 8.Bxg6 Qxh1+ 9.Ke2 both black moves - 9.-- Qxc1 and 9.-- c6 are lost for black.

Corrections and improvements are welcomed! :)