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Without computer !


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Benjamin Aldag    (2007-01-29)
Without computer !

Hi, it would be nice, to have some tournaments, where it is not allowed, to use computer-assistence. And it would be great, to have list of players, which dont use computer-assistence. Since my comeback here, i dont use an engine for my games and i can say, it makes more fun ! ;-) yk


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-01-29 13:24:51)
Advanced chess

Hi Benny.

I think so :) .. however this is not the way it goes, I don't think it could be serious enough and it could be quite confusing.. by the way there are many places where computers are not allowed. In this case, rating is not so important, so just don't use it !?


Benjamin Aldag    (2007-01-29 14:24:07)
engine-free area

Thank You Thibi, for your fast answer. I believe, its more interesting to play vs. Opponents between 800 and 1600 rating. This area is in my opinion "engine-free". yk


Marcus Miranda    (2007-02-01 14:43:32)
Computer assistance

I do not know very much about chess, I am just a beginner, but I think that using a computer to help you play your moves is kind of not fair with your opponent, and if both players are using it, seems to be a game between two computer engines. Maybe I just do not know how people use computer assistance, I apologize if I am talking nonsense.


Charlie Neil    (2007-02-02 11:45:33)
Without Computer

Marcus if you can please read the old forum postings, "Why do you play corr-chess." I made a similar comment about computers being used as the main player. Believe me I was wrong! As much as in correspondence chess you can use notes, books and databases for reference. Here at FICGS, (A great site!) players use their computers as a reference. It does not benefit anyone to just relay their computer moves without understanding them. Those players won't prosper nor will develop a passion we chessplayers have for the game. I believe that now to be the case. Personally I don't have a Juinor8, Fritz 10 or Deep Joe 90 or whatever to use as a reference point. I do have a pile of books that serve to confuse me in my games. As I continue to seek understanding in this game. People should use computers as long as the computers don't use them! How boring can it be just to imput moves? The computer isn't compulsory. And I am saving a fortune on stamps playing here! It is fun after all. It is only a game. Even if it is a terrible one.


Marcus Miranda    (2007-02-02 15:37:22)
Without computer

Thanks Charlie for directing me to the old forum, I thought that a computer engine is unbeatable if you give it enough time, and if this was the case there would be no human touch in the moves you play, I guess I am wrong.


Richard Core    (2007-02-03 03:20:17)
Computer free chess

Hi Benjamin Aldag, I agree with you. I really don't see the reason for playing with a computers help. What have you accomplished with the help of a machine? I have no idea. When I come up with a great combo, I get the satisfaction that the answer came from me, not the machine or any other source. It is alot more fun. A lot more fun. I think most people I have played are not ussing computer help. I haven't won a tournament yet, but I think I have had a respectable performance.


Marc Lacrosse    (2007-02-03 18:09:12)
To Richard & Benjamin

There are dozens of web-server-chess sites where computer use is forbidden.
If you cannot see any interest in computer-assisted play why do you play here ?
Nothing requested you to play here ...
I won't argue on the interest of computer-assisted chess. It's a question of taste and I do completely understand that you do not like it.
Every month there is a new thread in the forum complaining against computer-assisted cheaters or defending the gimmick of the poor computer-assisted idiot unable to play on its own.
This I cannot accept : go away to these numerous sites where computer is forbidden (and real cheaters abound) and let us play according to the rules of this site !
By the way if you wish do choose any engine of your liking and do let it play alone without human intervention a pair of games against any of the 100 best rated players here. I am ready to bet that the computer alone is probably going to lose both games or at most to get one draw.
Then you will maybe understand why the human touch is decisive in these games.
And as I already said on numerous occasions, when I am going to spend dozens of hours analysing a foregoing game all along months of play I prefer that my opponent won't spoil it due to a pure magnificent and so-human blunder.
Winning against blundering self-comfident purely human opponents has no taste at all IMHO

I prefer fighting hard against one who has all kind of book and computer help assisting him.

Marc


Benjamin Aldag    (2007-02-04 22:26:09)
To Marc Lacrosse

Hey guy, come down !

I just say, it makes more fun to play without computer-assistence.

I play here, because i will never reach the level of computerplayers and my opponents are in 99% free of computer-assistence. I dont want to be a slave of my computer and in my opinion is this the right way.

I know 9 people here with an official rating between 1500 and 1600 ELO(DWZ) and here they have a rating between 2200 and 2300. :-D<br
You say, with only computermoves you will never reach the highest level here and i can say - YOU ARE RIGHT !

Players with a FIDE ELO 2200 and higher will have here a rating over 2600 and they will not only play computermoves. But i play chess for two years and have an official FIDE rating of 1822 and believe me, it makes no sense for me to play with computer-assistence.

yk


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-02-05 12:34:53)
Correspondence chess / OTB chess

Quote : "Players with a FIDE ELO 2200 and higher will have here a rating over 2600 and they will not only play computermoves."

Benny, this is just wrong ;) .. There are many examples, here and everywhere... Best correspondence chess players are not best chess players with computer assistance, they are 'only' the best correspondence chess players.


Nicola Lupinacci    (2007-02-14 09:57:32)
engine-free area

I completely agree with Benjamin Aldag. there are many players that do not use comp. ass. becouse they are pure chess players. and there are also players who cannot use a pc ass. becouse they do not have a chess engine or they play from work or from the office. but if comp. ass. is allowed i cannot tell nodoby "DO NOT USE A CHESS PROGRAM". i think a great idea is to make a "place" or special tournaments where computer is not allowed or a special symbol after the name of players who use pc ass. so you know if your opponent is using a chess engine and you will play differently. this is the best free corrispondence chess server i found on the web and making a "not-pc-assistence-zone" will be the cherry on the cake! sorry for my bad english


Marc Lacrosse    (2007-02-14 19:09:12)
To Nicola

But there are already _many_ other web-chess organisations with forbidden computer use:

- our friends at itsyourturn.com
- the letsplaychess server
- http://www.playchess.de/
...

The last one has a very good interface and is also free.
Servers with computer use allowed are at the opposite very few.
So why should Thibault change a feature which is specific here for something which is already available everywhere else ?
Moreover, having played for long at playchess.de where both kinds of play exist (with or without computer help) I can tell you that there was there a surprinsingly large number of players cheating in the non-computer section instead of playing with their computers in the computer-allowed one, and this was at the origin pf permanent discussions and flame wars on their forum.

For what regards myself I do not wish that FICGS would go the same way.

Marc


Benjamin Aldag    (2007-02-15 12:30:33)
YOU FLAME !

@ Marc Lacrosse

The discussion is not about to change something. It is about to build a new feature here. It would be kewl to see a little (c) in the profiles of computerusers.

Please dont flame here about 'what is allowed and whats not allowed' !!!

IT IS ALLOWED TO USE A COMPUTER-ASSISTENCE !!!! AND THIS IS OK FOR ME !!!! AND IT IS ALlOWED TO PLAY WITHOUT COMPUTER-ASSISTENCE !!!! IS THIS LOUD ENOUGH ???

I play here at FICGS and why should i play at playchess.de ??? I want to play CC-Chess HERE ! So please dont tell me, where i can play without computer-assistence. I can play without computer-assistence here TOO !

yk


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-02-15 14:26:23)
Engine free area

Definitely, there won't be a (C) mark as computer, (F) as Fritz, (B) as books or (D) as databasen, (C+B), (F+D+B) and so on :) .. It makes sense in blitz / bullet chess on Playchess ie., not in correspondence chess, as human makes the real decision.

Definitely, I agree with Marc. I had some experience in the past in organizations that forbid computer assistance, I'm convinced it's no use to separate rating lists. Actually, it would even lose some interest for many players.

Anyway, if you do not take care about top ratings, just play chess without computer assistance (it is allowed too) :)


Marc Lacrosse    (2007-02-15 22:55:30)
Why such a shouting ?

@Benjamin Aldag

"The discussion is not about to change something. It is about to build a new feature here"

You are completely illogical.

Evidently you may play without computer as you wish here.

You may also try to find other members who prefer to play this way and register together with them in a tournament.

So what you wish to do is already possible. But what you request is not that.

You request to play here against opponents for whom computer use will be forbidden.

This is simply not the rule here. It's even one of the fundamental originalities of this site.

The rules of the site are that everything is allowed

If you and friends of yours manage to play without computers this is up to you

But asking for special rules supposes that you intend to request that Thibault or someone will check that YOUR rule is enforced.

IMHO this is purely not working. You won't find any organisation that wil be able to ensure that no player cheats regarding this kind of rule.

So let me repeat (and it is MY RIGHT not to agree with your opinions) : if you find opponents with which you have an agreement for playing without comps here this is perfectly fine for everybody and it's up to you to see wether you are happy with the way your partners do or do not respect the agreement.

If you wish to change radically the rules so as to have tournaments where something like a police dept will check that no comp is used than GO AWAY and simply do register in one of the numerous sites where these rules do exist and where almost everybody cheats.

By the way : no need for shouting to tell what you wish.

Shouting will not make your opinions more valuable in any way.

Marc


Pablo Schmid    (2007-02-15 23:32:13)
A solution?

For players like Aldag, it might be possible to host a tournament "without computers", so Thibault would not have to change something in his system, rules or rating..


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-02-16 00:00:43)
A solution?

Hi Pablo.

The real point is here (quote from Benjamin) : "The discussion is not about to change something. It is about to build a new feature here"

Such a new feature is not only something more, it would completely change the challenge's nature offered here. I don't think it's a good idea. A special tournament would have no sense here IMO. If you want to play without computer assistance and be sure your opponents do the same, the only solution is... play big chess :)


Elmer Valderrama    (2007-02-17 10:59:30)
like a no-smoking zone?

I believe what Aldag want is a place with a sign "computer-free chess" just like those pubs, restaurants, trains, etc use a "no-smoking zone" sign. It will be visible so that it will deter smokers/engine-users to enter that zone.

To make it less attractive to engine assistance, these games should be unrated, with player automatically losing their current ELO (that ELO rating could have been "won" using engines previously anyway) so just their names will suffice, and there should not be no tournaments --so that there is no "winners" as this will trigger the use of engines-- The players will only challenge each other and the winner will not be known to anybody except the players, and the games will not be recorded in the general database and they will not be shown live: all this will for certain deter any need to use an engine i.e. 'winning' means nothing literally and it will look as if it never happened

This way chess without engines will be as if doing something clever when actually it is a loss of time -can't remember who said this about chess 8-)


Charlie Neil    (2007-02-17 15:37:26)
Without computer

Without Shouting!


Charlie Neil    (2007-02-19 14:01:54)
Without Computer!

I am just going to say at the start of my games that "I don't use computer assistance". It will be obvious by move 10 usually! But why don't you just state your intention at the start of the match to use books, computers or smoke, (tobacco, of course!)..... %-}









 

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