Wch 22 Stage 2 ended


Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

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Garvin Gray    (2021-04-10)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

As noted by Stanislas Gounant, all three groups have now ended.

Looking at the qualifying structure for the World Championship, are we waiting for the winners of the two Semi Finals to be completed?

That would then mean the Knockout final and the Round Robin Final start at the same time.

In response to that, I would think that a round robin group of 28 games would take longer than a knockout final of 8 games, so the round robin group should start earlier, if possible

Thibault de Vassal    (2021-04-12 12:14:19)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

Well, any solution is fine to me, but I'm not sure it would be ok for all players, particularly those who may try to manage many games in various WCH cycles... but maybe it is time to decide and to make a new rule.

Garvin Gray    (2021-04-13 09:25:24)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

In terms of games management, I do not think there is any 'perfect' solution.

The only way a player could have any way of being able to predict when the next stage would start is if a full pdf calendar was published, which is not the case for this site.

With what we have to work with so far, the best way a player can predict game load is to monitor the remaining games in the cycle in progress and estimate when they are going to end.

And then a rule could be implemented that states something like: Once all games from the previous stage have been completed, the next stage will begin as of the 1st of the next month.

Which would mean that for Wch 22 Stage 2, the Round Robin group would start 1/5/2021.

And then once the last two games from the Semi Final knockouts are completed, the knockout final starts on the 1st day of the next month.

Thibault de Vassal    (2021-04-15 14:48:06)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

There is no full calendar indeed but that is a mistake... for now, there is a line "Schedule" in My messages that displays when the next WCH & CUP will start, but I could add the same for next rounds if we decide that all next rounds should start with new cycles. A start at 1st of the next month may be not so easy to manage according to the cases.

Stanislas Gounant    (2021-04-15 15:55:58)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

If WCH 24 stage 1 start in the same time that WCH 22 stage 3, lot of games start in the same time

Thibault de Vassal    (2021-04-16 14:44:46)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

That is true as well... but fact is that a round may (usually) last 5,6,7,8,9 or 10 months.

It is not easy to make it easier for players anyway.

Garvin Gray    (2021-04-18 13:26:22)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

I have come to the conclusion that there is no point in debating this topic.

The reason for deciding on this conclusion is that I believe that Thibault will always support the status quo and will not change is opinion as site owner, therefore it is a complete waste of time debating any of these topics.

I have been involved in these debates before, and even though sometimes changes are made, it takes many months of painful debate and even after that and agreements reached, those agreements are then reneged on.

Therefore, it is just a waste of time to attempt to try and change the status quo.

Stanislas Gounant    (2021-04-18 16:32:05)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

I would like to thank the efforts of Thibault who makes available to us free of charge and keeps this probably unprofitable site alive.

Garvin Gray    (2021-04-18 17:28:11)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

I do not disagree with your general sentiment, but as someone who has been on this site a long time, I have experienced a lot of negotiations and discussions like this, where the discussions end up going nowhere, or some kind of 'change' is promised , and then after a while, those format changes are walked back.

Therefore, I have become rather jaded by this entire process and I am now of the opinion that Thibault just offers these discussions in an attempt to make it look like he is entertaining differing opinions, when really he TRULY can not bring himself to make the changes that some of these discussions are asking for as he already believes that the site is perfect as it is.

So, you are then treating the forum posters like mugs if you are saying, lets discuss the topic and come up with new ideas, if you have no genuine intention of embracing any of the ideas proposed.

I have now said my last post on this matter for quite a while.

I have made it clear what I think of these forum discussions and their purpose, so there is now no further requirement for me to reply.

Thibault de Vassal    (2021-04-18 22:39:47)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

With all my respect Garvin, you couldn't be more wrong on that one... To me, FICGS is everything but perfect. Actually it is so heavy (mainly because it was coded very very fast - way too fast - with the [bad] idea to make it simple and to save as much processor & memory as possible) that some changes are very difficult to make. In this way, some good ideas could be very hard to bring to life.

But these 2 changes asked in the 2 running threads would be very easy to make! So it is only a question of time (it is most often bad to make a change fastly). For now, I have no clear opinion in this discussion and we could easily add a rule that states that any stage could start as fast as possible. And in the other discussion, the 10 moves rule could disappear even if I think it wouldn't be a good idea. Or it could evolve as it has been mentioned.

Garvin Gray    (2021-05-04 12:14:16)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

I decided to leave this discussion for a while for two reasons. 1) I genuinely believed that whatever would be agreed to in this discussions would be unwound at a later date and

2) That my involvement in the discussions was not a helpful factor for others to become involved in the discussions

I will now explain what issues made me go public with my frustrations with this site and with the site owner in particular.

Over a long period of time, I had a to beg, plead and convince that the FICGS World Cup was an event that would be supported, despite Thibault's regular protests to the contrary.

Once the event and the format was finally decided to 'give it a go', the numbers was huge for this site and the general format had two primary goals:

1) No preferential treatment for high rated players. Everyone started from round one and the groups for round one would be divided up to make sure that each group would be of roughly equal strength

2) In previous discussions with the WCH, I had regularly protested that when there were groups of 5, that these groups should be double round robin, ensuring that all players got eight games and that colour allocation for the top two seeds would not play a role in the final results.

Then the latest groupings for the World Cup were released and everything that had been previously agreed had been violated:

1) Groups of 5 were used and all groups were only single round robin (breaking of a previous agreement)
2) The entire purpose of the World Cup was to have large first round groups and a small number of groups, ensuring that only about 9 or so players made it through to the final round. As it stands now, about 19 players will make it to the final round. The entire format has been advertised as a two round event. Therefore, there can not be a third stage. This is a clear condition of entry and it can not be violated. (breaking of another previous agreement).

I can go on and on, but I think this is sufficient as to highlight why I come to the conclusion that the site owner has no issue at all with breaking previous agreements.

I busted my ass for a number of years to convince everyone that the World Cup was a good event worth supporting. And when it was first run, it was well supported.

To now see it so corrupted makes me just think, why bother. Another deal broken. Time to move on from this site.

Thibault de Vassal    (2021-05-07 01:34:51)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

I understand your frustration Garvin, thanks for explaining your views once again and I'll try to answer each point (even if you do not answer anymore):

a) You were right on the Cup format Garvin, obviously. Probably on (many) other ideas... I just can't say.

b) I always thought & said that stable rules were important in many ways (that I explained), which is frustrating, I understand that.

c) As far as I remember, I added the possibility of double round-robin for 5-players groups after that discussion but indeed it was (probably) never used. Maybe the rule should be changed to "always double-robin for 5-players groups", that would be easy to do. A fact is that it is difficult to gather more than 3 or 4 opinions in this forum these times :/ By the way, if anyone can find this discussion where I agreeded something else than a possibility, then (my bad) I'll change it immediately.

d) I do think that a multi-stages tournament should have a pre-determined number of stages... (players should know what kind of engagement it represents) Maybe I just missed that point and a rule specifying that stage 1 groups will be built so that x to y players (no less, no more) will play round 2 could be added. Why not.

Garvin Gray    (2021-05-10 11:44:13)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

Groups with less than 7 players: https://ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=forum_read&id=13002


FICGS chess cup championship is a 2 stages round-robin tournament.

My wording: The two stage tournament is the basic design of the event and is hard wired into the event. The whole event was designed to be a two stage event, with large groups in the first stage, to ensure that the first round groups are competitive and also that no players received byes through to a second round based on rating.

I had to plead for years for this format and garner support from other players before you would agree to even run it as a trial in it's first year. And then in its first year, it received over 100 entries, a lot of top players entered and was a complete success.

So, I believe I have every right to be pissed off at you directly that it really does seem like you are attempting to unwind the format of this event.

The format is clearly described in the published rules, so for the site owner to so flagrantly ignore them can only be described as one of two actions:

1) Negligent
2) Deliberant

Don Groves    (2021-05-11 04:32:20)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

If you are so unhappy, why are you still here?

Thibault de Vassal    (2021-05-17 23:24:20)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

Garvin, that thread (13002) was about FICGS Wch, not FICGS Cup... I added the possibility only of double round robin in Wch because I was not sure it was necessary in every stages (obviously it finds more sense in a round robin final than in stage 1), but anyway I could make it more accurate.

But indeed I just saw it was specified in FICGS Cup rules: "There will be double round-robin tournaments in case of groups of less than 7 players." ... fact is I can't remember when it was added but I guess I could have forgotten to apply it. Usually I read the rules again & again while making pairings, so I may have been negligent here. My apologies to all participants...

Thanks Garvin for pointing it out.

I'll come back on changes soon, it is a pity not to be able to gather more opinions so I'll have to make a move anyway.

Garvin Gray    (2021-06-13 11:22:28)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

Now that my ficgs cup group has finished, I feel I can reply without feeling like I am pushing my own barrow.

When I highlighting the issue of when there is a group of 5, I was not intending it to be related to either championship.

This is because, in my view, the issue is the same, regardless of whether the group of view occurs in the WCH, the ficgs cup or a general group game.

I am aware that some people probably have read my replies as being rather strong on this topic, and in some cases, unhelpful, but if you look at it from the viewpoint of having engaged in genuine dialogue, exchanged viewpoints, debated back and forth, and gone over many topics again and again and finally after all that time, have gotten in writing and published rules that changes will be made, and then as soon as the situations come up again, the old rules are enforced again and nothing changes, then it becomes quite a bit more understandable why a negative tone and suspicion is underlaid in the discussions.

And as for why not walk away?

Had I been told that the entire format for the FICGS cup was going to be disbanded, that groups of 5 were going to be used and only single round robin was going to be used and three or four stages were going to be used, then YES, I probably would not have entered, and I would have made my feelings known as to why I was not entering.

And, I would have been looking to not enter any further World Championships as well. I have a Round Robin group coming up, as well as a Stage 2. These I will complete and do my best to advance, but if the old rules are maintained, then I will not be entering any future cycles.

Thibault de Vassal    (2021-07-04 00:58:51)
Wch 22 Stage 2 ended

Sharing your opinion here was never unhelpful, whatever the consequences... Thank you again for that (whatever the tone ^^), it has become too rare.

That's the fourth time I re-read your answer and I always take time to think about it, and I'm still not ready to answer it. That's probably one reason to that lack of changes, I'm that slow :)