Unfair partial withdrawal


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Marc Lacrosse    (2007-08-13)
(Unfair) partial withdrawal

A few weeks ago IM Andrey Vovk had a discussion in the forum with Thibault regarding the fact that he did not wish to play in the new WCH although he had formerly enrolled on the waiting list.

As Thibault confirmed that he had to play in tournament FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_M_01__000003, IM Vovk announced that he would forfeit all his games in this tournament.

That's what he seemed to do for more or less 30 days as he let his clock run and so lost five games on time.
Then he seemed to change his mind and began to play in his three remaining games where his flag had not yet fallen.

Although I admit that anybody may decide to play or to resign whenever he wishes, this seems a bit problematic in a qualification tournament : five players got a full point whereas three have to fight one more opponent (and presumably a very strong one)...

For what regards myself I am very happy to play a game against IM Volk but I feel that three of us have not the same chances anymore as the five other ones for qualification ...

I think this situation calls for establishing new rules for qualification tournaments : if a player clearly forfeits a given number of games, then all his games in this tournament should be withdrawn.

Your opinion ?


Garvin Gray    (2007-08-13 14:28:23)
bye bye

So if I understand the situation, he has failed to make a move in more than half his games, is this correct?

If so, then he should be thrown out of the whole tournament. He has forfeited more than half his games in the tournament.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-08-13 15:05:19)
New rule ?

"If a player clearly forfeits a given number of games, then all his games in this tournament should be withdrawn."

I was to write a new rule to clarify this point but it will be always possible to turn around, and there may have some circumstances. All is in "clearly" but that's no more server decision but human one.. that we try to avoid as far as possible.

We have to make a choice or keep current rules... Any suggestions ?

Garvin Gray    (2007-08-13 15:27:50)
new rule wording?

I will admit I didnt reply with the intention of wording a new rule. Was just showing what I thought of the claimed actions.

Current server policy is that any games under 10 moves are not rated. So that seems like a good place to start.

If a player fails to make ten moves in 50 per cent or more of their games in a tournament, they will be withdrawn from that tournament.

The tournament will continue as though the withdrawn player was never part of that tournament.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-08-13 15:37:07)
New rule

50 or x % is not a solution IMO. So it will happen (with cheating intentions or not) with 40 %, for the same result.

Sergei Ivanov    (2007-08-13 16:37:14)

[moderator : possibly offensive post deleted]

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-08-13 16:46:22)

Is "pig" offensive in your opinion ? :)

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Ivan Pljusnin    (2007-08-13 16:59:33)
2 Thibault, Sergey

"Is "pig" offensive in your opinion ? :)"

Some IGAME players call me "bio-appendage of Fritz", and I am proud of it. Fritz is the greatest! He will tear to pieces everybody!

Frankly speaking, I am not worthy to be His bio-appendage like all other mortals. So I don't mind somebody calling me His pig-headed fan. For me it's rather a compliment. :-)

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-08-13 17:16:34)
2 Ivan & Sergey

"pig" doesn't look like much "pig-headed fan" IMO... but of course I may be wrong :)

Anyway, playing with the rules is a tough game where nobody wins, ever.. quite obvious.

Garvin Gray    (2007-08-13 17:24:49)

Dare I ask, where has this pig reference come from? It is not contained in Marc Lacrosse's first post, nor in the next three posts.

The first mention of the term pig is by Sergei Ivanov.

I cannot work out how it is related to the situation Marc Lacrosse raises.

Sergei Ivanov    (2007-08-13 17:25:19)
Thibault de Vassal

On this theme there is a fine Russian poem, but " difficulty of translation " not allow me to write it on English.
However captain Igame with pleasure will help to transfer sense of the given poem :))

[moderator : sorry, this forum is english-speaking only, feel free to post the poem in english]

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-08-13 17:43:44)

Obviously, the "reference" was another thread, but let's come back to the main problem : partial withdrawal... ;)

Sergei Ivanov    (2007-08-13 17:46:35)

Sorry, but it is impossible.
The sense of a poem was in that: Russian people know, that A.Vovk could not operate differently.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-08-13 17:59:54)

Anyway your initial post was deleted. ("possibly" offensive post) :)

Any other idea to write a rule to solve this problem ?

Garvin Gray    (2007-08-13 20:51:16)
further information

Let me think about it and I will get back to you. I do think that I am on the right track though.

My train of thought had been that in most round robin competitions, if a person withdraws from the tournament before they have played 50% of their games, all their results are wiped for the tournament and the tournament is decided with one less participant.

Secondly, if a player does not appear at the board within one hour of the starting time, they lose (fide otb rule), so I had just extended that to a ficgs equivalent, which is timing out.

As has been said by Marc, Vovk did not play in any of the five games that he timed out in, so he did not 'appear at the board' so to speak.

Thirdly, ficgs does not rate games which last less than ten moves.

What I had done was combined these three areas into a quantifable rule that is 'easy' to enforce.

I was specific about saying 50% or more, instead of over 50%, because all the tournaments here have odd numbers, so each person potentially players an even number of games in each tournament.

This all being said, I think it really only applies to the World Champ sections and maybe to norm tournaments.

Mladen Jankovic    (2007-08-14 14:19:26)
Playing with rules

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic ;)

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-08-14 14:27:21)

Looks interesting :)

"Nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. In that respect it differs from almost every other game. The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. Even this core of the game, of course, can be changed. —Peter Suber, the creator of Nomic"