Threefold repetition

  

Threefold repetition


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Patrycja Zerowska    (2022-10-06)
Threefold repetition

It seems that there is no way to claim a draw by threefold repetition on this site. In the game 136386, where I have Black, the position that occurred after my 50th move, is the same as that after my 58th move, and will be the same after my intended 60th move, namely 60... Bf7. I therefore claim a draw in this game.

Since apparently there is no "automatic arbiter" to process the claim, I called the "referee" on 1 October 2022 (5 days ago), explaining that I made a draw claim as described above (and mentioning my intended move), but I haven't received a reaction yet.

This particular game has been a dead draw at least since move 35. I offered a draw after my 35th move and on my 59th move. Both offers were declined.

1. Why is there no automatic arbiter which processes draw claims? If I am not mistaken, this site exists more than 15 years already, and yet the Laws of Chess are not yet fully implemented.

2. Why can't I stop my clock when I make such a claim? See art. 9.5 of FIDE's Laws of Chess.

3. Why doesn't the arbiter or the referee stop my clock? Without this, a player making a claim can timeout, or, when she is short on time, may be reluctant to make a draw claim.

4. Why doesn't the referee take action? Is there a referee at all?

In the rules section of this site I read: "Also, there is no way to stop the clocks, players cannot claim that they stopped to play after they called the referee for any reason..." This is a violation of the rules of chess; it implies that on this site it is not chess that is being played, but a weird chess variant. Of course I disagree with this corruption of the playing rules, and so should everyone who call themselves chess players!

Your strange rules also state that the referee will "act as soon as possible", but so far, after five days, no referee has shown up. So you are not even acting in agreement to your own rules.

Finally, I find in your rules the following statement: "All games are played until a player resign, accept draw, or lose on time." This is the most ridiculous "rule" I have ever encountered. Not only renders this farcical rule a win by checkmate illegitimate, it is a blatant ignoring of the Laws of Chess, which allow games to be ended by accepted draw claims, or for any other reason at the discretion of an arbiter.


Scott Ligon    (2022-10-07 01:20:05)
Threefold repetition

I don't think you have to claim the draw. When threefold repetition occurs (after you submit your next move), I believe the site software will automatically declare the game a draw. In a recent game of mine, that's what happened. I got the email notification that the game was a draw almost immediately after submitting the move that resulted in the third repetition, too quickly for my opponent to have accepted my draw offer. Maybe the draw offer is necessary for the draw to happen, I don't know about that, but if it automatically recognizes the repetition I see no reason why it would matter whether there was a draw offer.

As for when / if the arbiter should act in positions that seem obviously drawn, I don't know how that's handled and I have nothing to say about that.


Thibault de Vassal    (2022-10-07 02:58:17)
Threefold repetition

Hello Patrycja,

Sorry for the delay, I just saw the email indeed... As Scott says, you have to play the move anyway before to claim a draw (if the site does not recognize it automatically). It seems to me that's how work most chess websites.


1. Why is there no automatic arbiter which processes draw claims? If I am not mistaken, this site exists more than 15 years already, and yet the Laws of Chess are not yet fully implemented.

> The only way to claim a draw after a threefold repetition is to play the move.


2. Why can't I stop my clock when I make such a claim? See art. 9.5 of FIDE's Laws of Chess.

> FICGS offers (mainly) correspondence chess, that is not OTB chess, and some FIDE laws do not apply here.


3. Why doesn't the arbiter or the referee stop my clock? Without this, a player making a claim can timeout, or, when she is short on time, may be reluctant to make a draw claim.

> FICGS is an automatic place, mainly. Games continue even if the referee has to take action later.


4. Why doesn't the referee take action? Is there a referee at all?

> There is one. But he may take some time... the forum & chat are good alternatives to get answers to any question.


Patrycja Zerowska    (2022-10-08 00:56:47)
Threefold repetition

Mr. Thbault de Vassal, you say that this case is treated the same way on most chess websites. This is not true. At the ICCF website, which is the standard for correspondence chess, the draw must be claimed (this in agreement with the Laws of Chess):

" ICCF:
9.2.1 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by a player having the move, when the same position for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):
9.2.1.1 is about to appear, declares to the tournament director (or the server) the intention to make this move, or
9.2.1.2 has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

At other websites, the rule is also correctly applied:

chess-mail.com
"8. To check the draw ( threefold repetition ; the fifty-move rule ) : Click on "Send and offer the draw". "

Gameknot:
"To declare the draw in a game due to the threefold repetition rule, please use "Declare draw" link located directly below the game board."

None of these sites violates the correct rule.

The FICGS way of handling this case involves several violations of the rules. First of all, the draw must be claimed. This rule exists for more than 100 years, and the advent of server chess hasn't changed it. Secondly, you require me to make a move, thereby taking back my claim and my intended move. Every beginner is told that it is forbidden to take back a move, a draw claim or a draw offer. Thirdly, you refuse to stop the clocks, allowing a player to lose on time by your inaction. This "inaction" constitutes interference in the course of the game by a third party, which is forbidden. Fourthly, your bot wants to automatically end the game when there is threefold repetition (or 50-move rule). Again this is forbidden by the rules! A bot can only act upon a claim, and never when there is no claim. With all these violations, we are no longer talking about chess, but about an undesirable chess variant.

It would be so easy to add a button under the chess board, where a player can make a draw claim. Why isn't this done?

You or your referee still hasn't taken action, and a whole week has passed since my claim.

I have always - since 1972 - played according to the rules and I refuse to violate the rules here and now. Therefore I won't make a move; it is forbidden.


Thibault de Vassal    (2022-10-09 01:55:57)
Threefold repetition

Oh ok then... Anyway there are indeed several violations of FIDE rules at FICGS. The first one (the 50 moves rule does not apply) because I found it interesting to try it & to make it different when I created the website. It is specified in the terms & conditions (if you read it).

The other ones exist probably because either I didn't care or know, either because it was technically convenient.

Consequently, I agree with you on this point but it works like this for more than 16 years now and I don't aim to change it until FICGS goes into other hands (that will probably happen one day) for many technical reasons.

About your game, you will have to play that move, just like any other player has to do in such situation. This will prove you agreeded the draw.


Thibault de Vassal    (2022-10-09 02:06:07)
Threefold repetition

... or you can lose on time or resign &/or cancel your membership, of course.


Patrycja Zerowska    (2022-10-13 08:16:44)
Threefold repetition

"... or you can lose on time or resign &/or cancel your membership, of course."

Of course... And then you ask yourself why so many strong players have left your site in the past. The answer should be very clear, not only from this incident, but also from the archived forum posts, which yield plenty of indications.


Thibault de Vassal    (2022-10-13 15:18:41)
Threefold repetition

I don't ask myself, I know that there are many reasons (many players told me why), but one of them may be the one [FIDE chess rules] you mentioned, I don't know, noone told me about this one before.