Sudden death games


Sudden death games !

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Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-10)
Sudden death games !

Hello to all.

Does someone have any idea about chess openings that would give White 50% chances to win & Black 50% chances to win OR draw, or reverse ? (in absolute, not ie. blitz statistics)

Thinking about 1.e4 Nf6 2.d4 Ng8 or 1.Nf3 d5 2.Ng1, in examples... but it's hard to know. Databases can't help much as very few games with obvious errors have been played. So mad gambits could be real challenges to play & analyze, with no draws at the outcome...

Your feelings ?

Ulrich Imbeck    (2006-09-10 22:54:54)
Not only the opening

With normal openings that you like only the personal power matters. Don't pay attention to such bullshit openings. It is worth to think about 1.b4, 1.g4 or 1.a3. These 3 examples are the border.

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-11 00:26:57)

Hello Ulrich.

1.b4 is not bad enough :) The idea is to organize ie. money matches (with only 1 game) & tournaments where draws can't happen. So it's important to have about 50% chances at a high level.

Just an idea.

Maybe normal start positions with a pawn less could work...

Dinesh De Silva    (2006-09-11 05:32:27)

Well, maybe a better idea might be to not allow d4 opening or e4 opening or Nf3 opening, and to allow other openings. Then there maybe a better chance for a result.

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-11 13:38:25)

It could be fair in tournament cases (but without any interest, just a thematic tournament more). But it couldn't have any sense in a 1 game match. That's the problem...

Gino Figlio    (2006-09-11 13:45:43)
OTB idea

Why not for a 1-game match, use the OTB tie-breaking idea of black winning with the draw but starting with less time on the clock, 20% less in a fast time control match?

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-11 13:49:05)
OTB idea

Hi Gino.

I thought about that, but it seems really unfair.. It depends too much on player's availability, so chances wouldn't be equal for sure.

Ulrich Imbeck    (2006-09-11 14:15:48)

Dear Thibault, your examples were strange. Let's have a look to employments of normal freaks like Bücker. Let's have a look to Gambit variations in the Blackmar-Diemer like 5.Dxf3 or in the Kings Gambit.

Dinesh De Silva    (2006-09-11 14:16:54)

If the one game is tied, have a very short game (perhaps 5 days or less each with Fisher time increment!?

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-11 14:28:51)
Gambits + Time controls

Ulrich : There's no line without a major mistake, even in these gambits, that really offers 50% chances to both sides this way (win & win OR draw) in my opinion. That's why I thought about these mad lines...

Dinesh : As I responded to Gino, time can't be an acceptable compromise. I thought about it already in order to find the best way to decide between players who tie in the WCH tournaments. It depends too much on personal parameters. There will probably be a kind of "infinite challenge", where the game starts again until one looses.. but it may be long in some cases :)

Ulrich Imbeck    (2006-09-12 01:07:36)
White to win

What's the matter with 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Lb7 3.Ld3 f5? I think it's won for white. You should look for a position hat would give White 50% chances to win & Black 50% chances draw. Only well known openings can give an experience for a score.

Elmer Valderrama    (2006-09-15 19:59:46)
two moves from the start

Interesting idea, Thibault, for having a winner in just one-game match. (I mean of course giving clear advantage to White from the start in a must-win game (any other result would be failure).

In this same line of thought, I would suggest to give White two consecutive starting moves (no captures allowed), W player chooses which are those two moves ( 0.e4 1.d4 or 0.e4 1.Nf3 or 0.e4 1.Bc4 or why not 0.e4 1.Qh5!? or whatever )

However, in all cases where White is giving a significant advantage at start, I believe, White has a 2/3 (66%) chance to win, and 1/3 (34%) to draw, so that in a match a strong player with White should go the next round. (assuming he has played the best two consecutive moves and then mantained the advantage all the way --although with the current wonderful defending capabilities of the engines it could add some serendipity to the game ;)

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-15 20:17:44)
two moves from the start

"White has a 2/3 (66%) chance to win, and 1/3 (34%) to draw" ?? ... you mean "to draw or loose" ?

Great idea, this move 0. Statistically, this is quite the same for : 1.Nf3 d5 2.Ng1 ... but 66% wins for Black seems a lot !? .. I would say about 40 to 50%, maybe less.

So, what chances for 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 Ng8 .. ?

And what about 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 Ng8 3.e4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Ng8 .. ? :)

Elmer Valderrama    (2006-09-16 10:20:16)
color won't matter

yes, color or turn to move at start has little importance: Black to move, he would play 0.d5 1...Nf6 now is White to make second move 2.Nf3 for example..then Black would have 66% chances to win... (or at least significantly more chances than in the usual starting position)

I mean 66% to win, 33% to draw and 1% to lose ;) (that's 34% to draw and lose)

I think the more moves are given to White(Black) the more advantage he will have, i.e. statistics would be higher to win (like 80%, 19.5% to draw and 0.5% to lose) However all this could be tested in practice, it certainly could add more picant (spice?!) to the game ;)

Elmer Valderrama    (2006-09-16 10:54:22)
2-games matches

The test ground could be 2-games matches between weak v weak, weak v strong, and strong v strong players(*in the ELO sense) : in the first game, the player has odds of two moves, in the second, he must defend the side with two moves down..

This could shed more light into this scheme..

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-16 12:24:20)
2-games matches

Well, why not such a thematic tournament soon (after Traxler)... The one with opening :

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 Ng8 3.e4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Ng8

.. is 100% wins for White so far !

Elmer Valderrama    (2006-09-16 13:49:35)
better extra moves

..I'd like to have a choice of those 4 extras moves: Nf3,d4,e4,Nc3 are not the best, IMHO ;)

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-09-16 14:03:47)
better extra moves

Sure they aren't ;)

Elmer Valderrama    (2006-09-16 15:14:06)
5 moves in fact

..just checked the thematic tournament 0007 on this sequence, and in fact White has 5(!) extra moves at the starting position (as it's his turn after 4.Ng8). No surprise most of the games are 1-0 (there are a couple of 0-1 too)

So 5 moves are too much; same would be for 4, or 3, me 2 moves it's a reasonable deal for Black (i.e. if draw Black "wins")