Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings

  

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Scott Ligon    (2025-01-07)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I am running an experiment where each move will be selected by Stockfish 17 in a deterministic configuration, so it will be possible to predict my response to any given move with certainty. I believe Stockfish 17 at these settings is so strong that it will be difficult if not impossible to exploit this strategy. However, if I reach a position where it looks like this strategy is going to lose, I reserve the right to deviate. If this happens, I will message my opponent to let them know that I am no longer following this system.

I'm using a python script to interact with Stockfish, but you should be able to get the same results running Stockfish 17 from the command line. I am currently running the search with the parameter nodes = 10 million (previously I tried nodes = 5 million but I found a way for white to win against Stockfish at that setting). From the command line:

go nodes 10000000

In order for Stockfish to be deterministic, it needs to be running on just 1 thread and from the command line that's the default. If for some reason Threads has a different value on your machine:

setoption name Threads value 1

I'm using the default size for the hash table, but if you run the search a second time without clearing the hash, you will get a different search result. So either close and restart Stockfish between searches or else clear the hash table:

setoption name Clear Hash

Lastly you need to be able to input the position before running the search. It is important that you enter the position via FEN string rather than by inputting the moves, because you might get different search results otherwise. Use only the first four fields of the FEN string, like this to get black's response after 1 e4:

position fen rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq -

From that position if you run Stockfish with nodes = 10 million, the last two lines of text output should say:

info depth 32 seldepth 46 multipv 1 score cp -26 lowerbound nodes 10000376 nps 462252 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 21634 pv c7c5
bestmove c7c5 ponder g1f3

I think only the values of "nps" and "time" will vary, everything else should be identical between runs / machines. So in this case Stockfish 17 recommends the Sicilian Defense and gives an evaluation of +0.26. (cp -26 is the evaluation in centipawns from the perspective of the side to move, but usually evals are given from white's POV).


Scott Ligon    (2025-01-07 20:14:22)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

And then type "quit" to close Stockfish.

If you're trying to run Stockfish from the command line for the first time, it's not very user friendly, but here's a link:

https://official-stockfish.github.io/docs/stockfish-wiki/UCI-&-Commands.html


Ulises Pineda    (2025-01-17 14:34:09)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

That's very interesting. Can you share the line that defeats Stockfish at 5 million nodes per move? If it has reached perfection at ten million, we could investigate how many nodes it needs for it.


Scott Ligon    (2025-01-17 14:44:57)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

To be clear, I still don't know if it can be beaten at 10 million nodes. Someone might eventually find a line with white that beats Stockfish 17 at these settings. But the longer the experiment goes without anyone finding such a line, the more confident I will be that it can't be beaten.

Here is a line that beats Stockfish 17 at 5 million nodes.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Nd5 Nxd5 8. exd5 Nb8 9. a4 Be7 10. Bd2 O-O 11. a5 f5 12. Be2 Bd7 13. O-O Be8 14. Ra2 h6 15. Kh1 Bg5 16. Be1 a6 17. Na3 Nd7 18. Nc4 Qc7 19. Bb4 Nc5 20. Ra3 Bb5 21. Nb6 Rad8 22. c4 Be8 23. Be1 Nd7 24. Nxd7 Qxd7 25. b4 Rc8 26. f3 Bh5 27. Bf2 e4 28. c5 dxc5 29. Bxc5 Rfe8 30. d6 Kh8 31. f4 Bxe2 32. Qxe2 Bf6 33. Qh5 Rf8 34. Rd1 Kh7 35. Rg3 Bd8 36. Rd5 Rf6 37. Qd1 Rf7 38. Re3 g5 39. Qh5 gxf4 40. Re1 e3 41. Rf1 Rf8 42. Rd4 Bf6 43. Rdxf4 Bg5 44. R4f3 Qf7 45. Qxf7+ Rxf7 46. Bxe3 Bxe3 47. Rxe3 Kg7 48. g3 Rc4 49. Rf4 Rc1+ 50. Kg2 Rd1 51. Re7 Rd2+ 52. Rf2 Rxd6 53. Rxf7+ Kxf7 54. Rxf5+ Kg6 55. Rc5 Rd2+ 56. Kf3 Rb2 57. Rc4


Scott Ligon    (2025-01-21 23:17:17)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

And now I have found a line that defeats Stockfish 17 at 10 million nodes, so that strategy is not safe to play as black. I won't post the line yet because I don't want to give away information that might be relevant for my opponents in games that are still running, but I intend to post it later.

I will continue to use the 10 million node strategy in the tournaments I had already started, but in my upcoming tournaments I will switch to the 15 million node version of this strategy, to test whether or not there's a line that defeats it. As mentioned in the first post, if Stockfish's recommended move gets to what appears to be a losing position, I will deviate from these strategies to try to avoid losing, and I will message my opponent to let them know this has happened. In my games so far, I have not deviated from the 10 million node strategy, unless it happened by mistake. But I'm not aware of any such mistakes.


Scott Ligon    (2025-02-09 21:47:17)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

My remaining games where I'm using the 10 million node strategy as black have gone past the point where they could transpose into white's winning lines against the 10 million node strategy (at least the two winning lines that I managed to find), so I will post them now. I found both lines while analyzing games that have now finished.

Game 147097: Kruse vs Ligon
https://ficgs.com/game_147097.html

Due to a repetition, the position after black's move 22 in the game was the same as the position after black's move 20 in the following line where white wins.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 g6 4. O-O Bg7 5. Re1 e5 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. a4 Nh6 8. d3 O-O 9. Be3 Qd6 10. Na3 f6 11. Nc4 Qe7 12. a5 Ng4 13. Bd2 Nh6 14. Qe2 Be6 15. h4 Ng4 16. Ra4 Rf7 17. Rb1 Bf8 18. h5 Qd7 19. b3 Re8 20. Re1 Rg7 21. Rb1 g5 22. Ne1 Nh6 23. Ne3 Qc8 24. g3 Bd6 25. N1g2 Bf8 26. f3 Qb8 27. Rba1 Nf7 28. Ng4 Qd8 29. Qf2 Nd6 30. Be3 b5 31. axb6 axb6 32. b4 Bxg4 33. fxg4 cxb4 34. Rxb4 b5 35. Rbb1 Qd7 36. Qf3 Rf7 37. Kh2 Rb8 38. Ba7 Rc8 39. Bf2 b4 40. Be1 c5 41. Ne3 Nb5 42. Nd5 Qc6 43. Bd2 Nc7 44. Ra7 c4 45. Rba1 Bc5 46. Nxb4 Bxb4 47. Bxb4 cxd3 48. cxd3 Rb8 49. Be1 Rb2+ 50. Bf2 Ne6 51. Ra8+ Rf8 52. Rxf8+ Nxf8 53. h6 Kf7 54. Kh3 Rb3 55. Ra2 Ke8 56. Ra7

Game 147106: Pineda vs Ligon
https://ficgs.com/game_147106.html

First 36 moves are the same as the following line where white wins. Black got the win only because white made a mistake in entering the final move, otherwise we were headed for a draw.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 g6 4. O-O Bg7 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. d3 a5 7. h3 b6 8. a3 Nf6 9. Qe2 O-O 10. Nc3 Ne8 11. e5 Nc7 12. Qe4 Ne6 13. Re1 Qd7 14. Qh4 f6 15. Be3 h6 16. Qg3 g5 17. h4 Qd8 18. Bd2 b5 19. b3 Kh7 20. Rac1 Kg8 21. Rcd1 Ra7 22. Rb1 Ra8 23. Rbc1 Ra7 24. Rcd1 Rb7 25. Bc1 Ra7 26. a4 b4 27. Ne2 Qe8 28. Bb2 Qf7 29. Nd2 Qh5 30. hxg5 fxg5 31. Qe3 Rd7 32. Nc4 Rdd8 33. Ng3 Qg6 34. Nxa5 h5 35. Qe4 Qe8 36. Ne2 h4 37. f3 Nd4 38. Rf1 Bf5 39. Qe3 Ne6 40. Bc1 Qg6 41. Nxc6 Rd7 42. Na5 Rf7 43. Rde1 Rd8 44. Nc4 Rdf8 45. Nb6 h3 46. Rf2 hxg2 47. Rxg2 Qh5 48. Rh2 Bh3 49. f4 g4 50. Qg3 Ng5 51. Rf1 Bxe5 52. Nd7 Bc7 53. Nxf8 Kxf8 54. Kh1 Qh6 55. Rff2


Herbert Kruse    (2025-02-15 06:16:06)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I dont See a win in my game


Scott Ligon    (2025-02-15 15:43:10)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

The position after 56 Ra7 is clearly winning if you run an analysis with Stockfish. I'm not saying it's obvious from a human perspective but if both players are using engines, black should resign at that point (and probably a few moves earler).

The move numbers don't line up with your game because I removed a repetition, but from your game if you go to the position after 22. Re1 Rg7, it's the same position as the line shown in this thread after 20. Re1 Rg7 and you can follow the line from there.


Herbert Kruse    (2025-02-15 19:00:32)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

but 21.-g5 is already weak, so ...


Scott Ligon    (2025-02-15 22:20:35)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

What I'm calling the winning line is only winning if black is restricted to the strategy of Stockfish 17 using 10 million node searches, though by the end of the line it is also objectively winning. Some of black's responses when using this strategy are mistakes, otherwise white wouldn't have a winning line. 21... g5 might not be black's best response but the position should still be defensible at that point. It starts to get very bad after 27 Rba1 Nf7 which I think is black's fatal error or close to it. Prior to that black should still have some defense.


Herbert Kruse    (2025-02-16 08:07:53)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

OK, as chessplayer i See, that 2.- Nc6 ist Not as good as 2.- d6


Scott Ligon    (2025-02-16 09:39:42)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I wouldn't draw that conclusion, but when I was looking at the 15 million node strategy as compared with 10 million nodes, I was happy to see that black switched from 2... Nc6 to 2... d6 in the Sicilian. Only because the 10 million node strategy lost in that line, so I wanted it to try something different. I would also have been happy with a switch from the Sicilian to 1 e4 e5.

It doesn't always stay with 2... d6 at higher node values either. At 19 million it goes to 2... e6 and at 20 million it's back to 2... Nc6.


Ulises Pineda    (2025-02-16 20:29:13)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

In our game I tried to apply some psychology, reach a position that is lost for black where the engine gives a low evaluation so you don't take over the defense of the position until it's too late, too bad I was incapable of making the move I intended to play.

I'd like to request that if we ever play again and I am white and you are black, that we repeat the same game and you turn on the 10 million nodes script after I play the correct move, and we see what would have happened, while I ignore the winning line found against the script.

That's the only chance I have for all the hours of analysis I spent in our game to not go to waste.


Scott Ligon    (2025-02-16 21:19:28)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

Since I only won because you made a mistake entering the last move, I will give you a return match at 10 million nodes. You can play it however you want but if we reach a position where I can see that the 10 million node strategy takes me into a losing position, I will take over at that point. Other than that one game, I'm officially retiring the 10 million node strategy since I already know that white can win against it.

Check the waiting lists. I think there's a tournament where I'm first on the list and there's one other player. If you enter third, I believe you would have white against me. I think that's how it works.


Scott Ligon    (2025-02-17 02:42:51)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

Or if you just want to see what would have happened if you had played 52. Nxa8, we can analyze the game here. My impression during the game was that we were headed for a draw but I can take a closer look.


Scott Ligon    (2025-02-17 04:20:15)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

Here are three lines I analyzed with Stockfish. I think black should be able to hold the draw in all of them, but the 10 million node strategy makes some mistakes. Notably 54. Qf3 Bd6 is bad and black should have played Bg3 there, but apparently not bad enough to lose unless further mistakes are made. Anyway these are the lines I looked at.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 g6 4. O-O Bg7 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. d3 a5 7. h3 b6 8. a3 Nf6 9. Qe2 O-O 10. Nc3 Ne8 11. e5 Nc7 12. Qe4 Ne6 13. Re1 Qd7 14. Qh4 f6 15. Be3 h6 16. Qg3 g5 17. h4 Qd8 18. Bd2 b5 19. b3 Kh7 20. Rac1 Kg8 21. Rcd1 Ra7 22. Rb1 Ra8 23. Rbc1 Ra7 24. Rcd1 Rb7 25. Bc1 Ra7 26. a4 b4 27. Ne2 Qe8 28. Bb2 Qf7 29. Nd2 Qh5 30. hxg5 fxg5 31. Qe3 Rd7 32. Nc4 Rdd8 33. Ng3 Qg6 34. Nxa5 h5 35. Qe4 Qe8 36. Ne2 h4 37. Rf1 Nf4 38. f3 Be6 39. Nxf4 Rxf4 40. Qe2 g4 41. Bc1 gxf3 42. Rxf3 Rg4 43. Rdf1 Rg6 44. Nc4 Bg4 45. Be3 Rd5 46. a5 Bxf3 47. Rxf3 Bxe5 48. Nb6 Rd8 49. a6 Re6 50. a7 Bc7 51. a8=Q Rxa8 52. Nxa8 Qxa8 53. Rf1 Qe8 54. Qf3 Bd6 55. Bg5 Kg7 56. Bxh4 Be5

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 g6 4. O-O Bg7 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. d3 a5 7. h3 b6 8. a3 Nf6 9. Qe2 O-O 10. Nc3 Ne8 11. e5 Nc7 12. Qe4 Ne6 13. Re1 Qd7 14. Qh4 f6 15. Be3 h6 16. Qg3 g5 17. h4 Qd8 18. Bd2 b5 19. b3 Kh7 20. Rac1 Kg8 21. Rcd1 Ra7 22. Rb1 Ra8 23. Rbc1 Ra7 24. Rcd1 Rb7 25. Bc1 Ra7 26. a4 b4 27. Ne2 Qe8 28. Bb2 Qf7 29. Nd2 Qh5 30. hxg5 fxg5 31. Qe3 Rd7 32. Nc4 Rdd8 33. Ng3 Qg6 34. Nxa5 h5 35. Qe4 Qe8 36. Ne2 h4 37. Rf1 Nf4 38. f3 Be6 39. Nxf4 Rxf4 40. Qe2 g4 41. Bc1 gxf3 42. Rxf3 Rg4 43. Rdf1 Rg6 44. Nc4 Bg4 45. Be3 Rd5 46. a5 Bxf3 47. Rxf3 Bxe5 48. Nb6 Rd8 49. a6 Re6 50. a7 Bc7 51. a8=Q Rxa8 52. Nxa8 Qxa8 53. Rf1 Qe8 54. Qf3 Bd6 55. Bg5 Kg7 56. Qf5 Re5 57. Qf4 Re6

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 g6 4. O-O Bg7 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. d3 a5 7. h3 b6 8. a3 Nf6 9. Qe2 O-O 10. Nc3 Ne8 11. e5 Nc7 12. Qe4 Ne6 13. Re1 Qd7 14. Qh4 f6 15. Be3 h6 16. Qg3 g5 17. h4 Qd8 18. Bd2 b5 19. b3 Kh7 20. Rac1 Kg8 21. Rcd1 Ra7 22. Rb1 Ra8 23. Rbc1 Ra7 24. Rcd1 Rb7 25. Bc1 Ra7 26. a4 b4 27. Ne2 Qe8 28. Bb2 Qf7 29. Nd2 Qh5 30. hxg5 fxg5 31. Qe3 Rd7 32. Nc4 Rdd8 33. Ng3 Qg6 34. Nxa5 h5 35. Qe4 Qe8 36. Ne2 h4 37. Rf1 Nf4 38. f3 Be6 39. Nxf4 Rxf4 40. Qe2 g4 41. Bc1 gxf3 42. Rxf3 Rg4 43. Rdf1 Rg6 44. Nc4 Bg4 45. Be3 Rd5 46. a5 Bxf3 47. Rxf3 Bxe5 48. Nb6 Rd8 49. a6 Re6 50. a7 Bc7 51. a8=Q Rxa8 52. Nxa8 Qxa8 53. Rf1 Qe8 54. Qf3 Bd6 55. Qf5 Rf6 56. Qg5+ Kh7 57. Qxh4+ Kg7


Scott Ligon    (2025-03-04 16:30:48)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

So the current state of the experiment is that white can defeat the 10 million node strategy, and so far I haven't seen a way for white to win against the 15 million node strategy. Somebody might find a win for white, it just hasn't happened yet.

I already mentioned that if this strategy leads me to a losing position and I notice this in time, I will intervene and stop playing the strategy to try to avoid losing. I will add another exception. If I reach a position that is winning or close to it, I will intervene to try to play for the win, because of course these fixed node strategies don't always find the best move. This has already happened in at least one of my games but I wanted to make my policy clear. I'm using a deterministic strategy as a sort of autopilot mode, but if I get close to winning or losing, I'll turn off the autopilot. This is rare though. Most of the time neither side gets a decisive advantage and I'll stay on autopilot and the game will end in a draw.


Scott Ligon    (2025-03-29 15:42:08)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I played one last game using the 10 million node strategy against Pineda. The game ended in a draw, but I had to deviate from the 10 million node strategy at the end to avoid losing. I thought the finish was interesting.

https://ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=viewer&game=147951

The key position came after black's 56th move, and up to that point with black I am just following the 10 million node strategy. These are the moves:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 g6 4. O-O Bg7 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. d3 a5 7. h3 b6 8. a3 Nf6 9. Qe2 O-O 10. Nc3 Ne8 11. e5 Nc7 12. Qe4 Ne6 13. Re1 Qd7 14. Qh4 f6 15. Be3 h6 16. Qg3 g5 17. h4 Qd8 18. Bd2 b5 19. b3 Kh7 20. Rac1 Kg8 21. Rcd1 Ra7 22. Rb1 Ra8 23. Rbc1 Ra7 24. Rcd1 Rb7 25. Bc1 Ra7 26. a4 b4 27. Ne2 Qe8 28. Bb2 Qf7 29. Nd2 Qh5 30. hxg5 fxg5 31. Qe3 Rd7 32. Nc4 Rdd8 33. Ng3 Qg6 34. Nxa5 h5 35. Qe4 Qe8 36. Ne2 h4 37. Rf1 Nf4 38. f3 Be6 39. Nxf4 Rxf4 40. Qe2 g4 41. Bc1 gxf3 42. Rxf3 Rg4 43. Rdf1 Rg6 44. Nc4 Bg4 45. Be3 Rd5 46. a5 Bxf3 47. Rxf3 Bxe5 48. Nb6 Rd8 49. a6 Re6 50. a7 Bc7 51. a8=Q Rxa8 52. Nxa8 Qxa8 53. Rf1 Qe8 54. Qf3 Bd6 55. Bg5 Kg7 56. Bxh4 Be5

I ran a width 6 / depth 55 search with Stockfish 17 on the position after black's 56th move, and the top 5 moves for white along with their eval scores were:

57. Re1
+ (0.39)

57. Qf5
+ (0.37)

57. Qg4+
+ (0.32)

57. Bg3
+ (0.25)

57. Qh3
+ (0.01)

Based on that, you might think white should only consider the top 4 moves. But if we look at this from the point of view of exploiting the 10 million node strategy, here are the evaluations of those top 5 moves after the 10 million node strategy response:

57. Re1 Bd4+
+ (0.52)

57. Qf5 Bd4+
+ (0.54)

57. Qg4+ Qg6
+ (0.42)

57. Bg3 Bc3
+ (0.27)

57. Qh3 Rg6
+ (1.65)

So presumably using that logic, my opponent played Qh3 where the 10 million node strategy would require me to respond with Rg6, which loses the game. Qh3 doesn't stand out at all unless you're trying to exploit the 10 million node strategy. The actual game ended with 57. Qh3 Bd4+ and we agreed to a draw.


Ulises Pineda    (2025-03-29 17:10:11)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

What I don't get is, what are your other opponents doing? I mean, it took some time, but at all points I had a line that I knew would beat the 10 million strategy if they were followed through, this is an opportunity to always get ponder hits because one always knows what move will be played in all positions.

Are those people aware that the fixed node strategy will lead to a draw, and they play it anyway? That's too weird to me.

I'm confident in a future game against the 15 million node strategy I would find another such line and play it out, just to retire it, but I wouldn't make any moves in the game until I had it, I don't know what those players that know all moves played would lead to a draw are doing.


Scott Ligon    (2025-03-29 18:03:58)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I think there's a decent chance that the 15 million node strategy is unbeatable, but I can't say what that chance is. Maybe I overestimate it. I have spent considerable time looking for a winning line for white and I haven't been able to find one. But, I had that same opinion about the 10 million node strategy before I found evidence in my games that it loses. Specifically games in the Sicilian. I haven't found any other winning lines for white.

As for my opponents, I think mostly they enter tournaments and play their usual game. I'm just another opponent. My focus is on the experiment I'm running, but I wouldn't assume everyone else is focused on it. But if anyone cares to prove that the 15 million node strategy is beatable, exploitive play is clearly the way to go about it. This most recent game shows that even a move that fails to give white an objective advantage could still merit consideration as a possible exploit against the fixed node strategy.


Ulises Pineda    (2025-03-29 18:12:32)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

A more interesting question is how to defeat YOU. I figure it'd require playing into a position where the 15 million node strategy blunders but where Stockfish 17 at high depth does not notice it so you play the losing move instead of taking over the game.

Of course such a discussion would be against your interests and against mine in a future conflict, but I'm looking forward to it.


Scott Ligon    (2025-03-29 18:24:32)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

Stockfish 17 at high depth is just too good though. Your best chance to defeat me is that I make a mistake entering the move. I try to be careful, but on a long enough time scale it's inevitable. Some combination of bored and tired or a misclick, I don't know what, but human error is the most likely answer to that question.


Scott Ligon    (2025-04-22 16:09:34)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I have found a line for white that defeats the 15 million node strategy, so it's time for another strategy upgrade. Due to games in progress I won't specify the line now except to say that once again, it's in the Sicilian defense. Of course there may be other lines as well but one is enough.

Rather than up the node count, I will be moving on to Stockfish 17.1. Conveniently for my purposes, Stockfish 17.1 prefers to meet 1 e4 with e5 at all settings I have checked (1 million to 15 million nodes in 1 million node increments). So for now, my plan is to play Stockfish 17.1 at 10 million nodes in all upcoming games, while sticking with the strategy I started with in currently running games. Of course if I find a winning line for white against 17.1 @ 10 million I will update this.


Scott Ligon    (2025-04-23 02:27:39)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

At this point all of my games are safely past the point where they could transpose into the winning line I found against the Stockfish 17 @ 15 million nodes strategy, so I will post it now. At the end of the line Stockfish found mate in 15 for white.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 h6 8. Bh4 Be7 9. Qf3 Nbd7 10. O-O-O Qc7 11. Bd3 g5 12. fxg5 Ne5 13. Qe2 Nfg4 14. Bg3 hxg5 15. Kb1 b5 16. Rdf1 Bb7 17. a3 Nf6 18. Nf3 Nh5 19. Bxe5 dxe5 20. g3 f6 21. Na2 Bc6 22. Nc1 b4 23. axb4 Bxb4 24. c3 Be7 25. Nd2 a5 26. Bc4 Bd7 27. Rfg1 Kf7 28. Rg2 Rag8 29. Nd3 Bc5 30. Rd1 Ba7 31. Qg4 Ke7 32. Bb3 a4 33. Ba2 Ng7 34. Nc4 Be8 35. Qe2 a3 36. Nxa3 Ba4 37. Rf1 Bc6 38. Qg4 Rd8 39. Bc4 Be8 40. Qf3 Rf8 41. g4 Bg6 42. b3 Bb8 43. h4 gxh4 44. Kb2 Ne8 45. g5 f5 46. Qh3 Qc6 47. Re2 Ng7 48. Qxh4 f4 49. Nb4 Qb6 50. Bb5 Rh8 51. Nc6+ Qxc6 52. Qxh8 Qxc3+ 53. Kxc3 Rxh8 54. Rd2 Rc8+ 55. Kb2 Kf7 56. Rfd1 Bxe4 57. Rd8 Rxd8 58. Rxd8 Kg6 59. Rxb8 Kxg5 60. Nc4 Nf5 61. Nxe5 Nd6 62. Rb6 Kf6 63. Rxd6 Kxe5 64. Rd7 Bg2 65. Kc3 Be4 66. b4 Ba8 67. Bc4 f3 68. b5


Ulises Pineda    (2025-04-23 14:49:42)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I'll request that if you ever play against me, jump at least to Stockfish 17.1 @ 20 million nodes, because a doubling of nodes is some 50 elo boost to the model, so a lot of games can be saved by increasing the nodes, as finding a winning line against such a thing isn't more difficult in reality, it just takes more time, so I guess those people don't think winning a game is worth the extra time used, or maybe they really don't know how, but if someone offered a million dollars for the line I'm sure they'd sit down and find it.
It's a matter of strength, someone with Stockfish 20 could find the line with a relative ease, and I don't think it'll play a perfect game already either, the blind spots just switch places.


Scott Ligon    (2025-04-23 15:21:53)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

My goal is to find the minimal setting where Stockfish can't be beaten, or close to the minimal setting anyway. The title of the thread shows my point of view on this issue. I think currently available versions of Stockfish with relatively modest computing power are already good enough to be unbeatable, regardless of how much money an opponent is being offered or how many supercomputers and grandmasters they have at their disposal when devising a strategy. From the starting position of a game of chess, it simply isn't that hard for modern engines to hold the draw with black. The draw rate on this very site is evidence.

I could make the task easier by generating a small opening book to keep Stockfish out of trouble in the opening, so in the case of Stockfish 17 @ 15 million nodes it might be good enough to simply dictate that it play e5 in response to e4 (I don't know if that specific example is true but it might be - I never found any trouble spots for that strategy with black outside of the Sicilian). But I want to do this with no opening book and also no access to endgame tablebases, just the engine's recommendation using a set number of nodes for the search. The settings I've tried so far fell short, but I think they weren't far off, so I'm taking only small steps forward. Stockfish 17.1 @ 10 million nodes seems like a good next step to me. If somebody finds a winning line against it, then I'll take the next step, either increasing the node count or if enough time has passed I'll move on to the next version of Stockfish.


Ulises Pineda    (2025-04-24 16:20:25)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

I'm going to find a winning line against it, and then I'm going to find a win against your next step, and then I'm going to find another one against the next one, so skipping steps are a way to save time.

Remember I never made a move in our games until I had found the line, I only played it out, I'm still surprised you haven't dedicated the time to find it as if you were your own opponent, unless I'm the only person in the world that knows how to find such lines.

By using Stockfish 17.1 @ 20 million of nodes you would get it retired by me already, I don't understand why you'd want me to retire 10 million or 15 million first, because this has never been about the number of nodes, this is about telling me how you're going to pick your moves so I can find a line that would make your method make a game losing blunder.

Remember you sent me a message thinking 10 million nodes would play just fine right before I made a move that would make it blunder, what I don't know is why didn't you see the move before I played it, or from the distance, and that it surprised you, have people really forgotten how to analyze games? If you build a big tree of moves and replies to them, it's going to contain a line that beats Stockfish at fixed nodes, it'll take me about 24 hours to find the one against Stockfish 17.1 @ 10 million nodes, and about 48 hours to find one against Stockfish 17.1 @ 20 million nodes, the difference is we'll save the amount of games we have to face each other.


Scott Ligon    (2025-04-24 16:36:24)
Stockfish unbeatable at modest settings?

Yeah you found a line that beat the 10 million node strategy which I hadn't analyzed. Congratulations! I'm not interested in arguing with you about the next strategy I choose to play. You might find a winning line against Stockfish 17.1 @ 10 million nodes, or maybe I'll find it first, or somebody else will. Or maybe nobody will find it because it doesn't exist (this is the possibility you completely discount). I've got nothing more to say to you and I can't imagine how many stupid fights you probably pick with people for no good reason in your day to day life, but your attitude is hilarious.