Speeding up Poker games


Speeding up Poker games

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Don Groves    (2010-04-22)
Speeding up Poker games

Does a Poker player get an extra day on the clock for every move like in Chess or Go? If so, that could be a big reason why the games are so long.

One move in Poker is insignificant compared to one move in other games. Maybe a player's clock should only increase one for each hand completed.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-04-22 14:14:46)
Speeding up Poker games

Yes, I have to change something, still looking for a coherent way, but 1 day after each hand is quite fuzzy to me (e.g. fold = 1 day more ?!)

Don Groves    (2010-04-23 00:34:27)
Speeding up Poker games

Isn't fold = 1 day more now?

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-04-23 02:01:02)
Speeding up Poker games

Yes, but the more you fold, the more time you get in this case.

Stephane Legrand    (2010-04-30 22:38:41)
Speeding up Poker games

Maybe, one day more for each player after 3 or 4 fold.

Stephane Legrand    (2010-04-30 22:41:07)
Speeding up Poker games

sorry i mean 3 or 4 hands.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-04-30 23:00:09)
Speeding up Poker games

Sure, but what will happen if your opponent always play when you're going to bed? :)

Stephane Legrand    (2010-05-01 02:25:48)
Speeding up Poker games

you dont sleep 24hours !
if he waits you go to bed he losses more time than you!!
but you are right some players can play with this rythm in certain case!!

Daniel Parmet    (2010-05-02 08:28:27)
Speeding up Poker games

still the way it is very annoying... case in point my ongoing game with ould.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-05-02 15:39:35)
Speeding up Poker games

We could try to change the standard poker time control to e.g. 10 days + 12 hours per move (instead of 30 days + 1 day per move)... I'm not sure if this will be enough and if it will have bad effects, the fact is I do not find a better idea :/

All opinions are welcome...

Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2010-05-02 16:02:41)
Speeding up Poker games

Hello Thibault,

maybe you can create a new category (Rapid Poker) with "10 days + 12 hours per move"? Then we can test it.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-05-02 16:40:48)
Speeding up Poker games

I'm afraid that a few tournaments would not be enough as a test... 2 time controls would be a good idea but I'm not sure if the rating lists would be filled fast enough so if you think that this new one would not bring real problems, maybe we should change the time control for all poker standard tournaments... then the experience will tell what to do!?

Daniel Parmet    (2010-05-02 16:58:28)
Speeding up Poker games

I think it is a good idea Thib!

Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2010-05-02 17:19:25)
Speeding up Poker games

There will be a problem for those players who can only move once a day. If they live on the "wrong" side of the world and / or they only can move between 5 and 6 o'clock of our time, 10d+12h will not work. If you only offer this time control they will not be able to play.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-05-02 19:20:14)
Speeding up Poker games

True, but after all there is a "bullet" time control for poker as well... and all these games count for the same rating list <-- this argument is actually good for both choices. Anyway we'll have to find a way to shorten these correspondence poker games.

Ryan Cross    (2010-05-02 20:05:07)
Speeding up Poker games

One option that wouldn't be too drastic as far as changing the way the game is played, but I'm sure would take some effort to implement, is simply conditional moves.

You called a raise off the button with a hand that doesn't hit so you check. However many hours later your opponent bets, as you expect. However many hours after that you finally fold.

With something as simple as a 'check/fold' switch for the current betting round, three moves could happen in practically the time of one. Not every time, but enough to make a difference.

Taking it a step further, one could create a list of advanced conditional moves. If my opponent bets between x and y, raise z. If my opponent bets between a and b, call. If my opponent checks, bet d, if opponent bets, fold.

So on and so forth. I've seen conditional moves work quite well in correspondence chess games, and to some extent conditional moves already work well in real time online poker games.

After that, one could consider programming starting hand ranges to fold, call, raise on the button. Though it would be nice if that somehow took stack size into consideration. But I digress, that's a suggestion for another day.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-05-02 22:01:16)
Speeding up Poker games

Nice idea... well, definitely I'll have to implement these conditional moves, but I'm afraid that will not be enough to speed up these poker games.

Ryan Cross    (2010-05-02 22:20:58)
Speeding up Poker games

Well, some other random ideas: Decrease the amount of time available to take any single move, currently 60 days, to something like 10 days, 14 days, whatever.

Or, play to one point instead of three. Or simply best out of three.

Somewhat off topic, I notice that when one player scores a point, one player starts with 101 chips (100 in hand and one in pot) and the other with 99 chips (97 in hand, 2 in pot). Seems like a bug to me.

Ryan Cross    (2010-05-02 22:24:38)
Speeding up Poker games

...Furthermore, another idea would be raising blinds to 2/4 after hand 25 or thirty, then 4/8 after hand 50, raising every ten hands after that. Blinds at 2/4 seem to be incentive to make bets much bigger often enough.

Admittedly, I haven't been playing poker here long enough to have a fine tuned idea of what exactly the problem is as far as poker games taking too long, so I'm just throwing these out there.

Garvin Gray    (2010-05-02 23:56:02)
Speeding up Poker games

Best of 3 instead of best of 5 surely would have to help speed things up.

Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2010-05-03 00:22:51)
Speeding up Poker games

I like best of 5. I would not like to miss it.

I think small blinds could raise earlier: 20/2 35/4 50/8 65/16 80/32 100/64.

"there is a "bullet" time control for poker": That's true, but not an alternative to a tournament. I have tried it once. After more than 2 hours and (only!) 265 moves my opponent had to resign because he has to do other things. If I think that I played many poker games with more than 1000 moves ...

Conditional moves are too complicated for poker I think.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-05-03 01:15:13)
Speeding up Poker games

Bullet poker games should go faster with the recent changes...
(including touch move).

On Ryan suggestions :

> Decrease the amount of time available to take any single move, currently 60 days, to something like 10 days, 14 days, whatever.

I think that this time limit per move is fine... too much pressure is not good. And it would not solve the whole problem.

> Or, play to one point instead of three. Or simply best out of three.

The way blinds increase and the number of points is the best scheme so far for the balance "chancy factor vs. game duration" IMO.

> Somewhat off topic, I notice that when one player scores a point, one player starts with 101 chips (100 in hand and one in pot) and the other with 99 chips (97 in hand, 2 in pot). Seems like a bug to me.

Huwow... would be a real bug! could you tell me what game & what move you saw that?? (you can see the previous moves of a game in the game viewer page)

Thanks for the suggestions anyway!

Brittany Smith    (2010-06-29 00:42:14)
Speeding up Poker games

I've gotta say, the duration of poker games is rather tedious. ): Considering the varying time zones, there should be multiple options for time Controls, that I agree with. I also agree that maybe there should be more variation in the "best-ofs".
Instead of 60 days, how about 30 or 20? 25? I also think that conditional moves are much too complicated for poker. o:

Don Groves    (2010-06-29 07:58:13)
Speeding up Poker games

I think now that increasing blinds faster is the best way to speed up the game. Fifty hands is too long for the blinds to stay at 1 and 2.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-06-29 12:28:42)
Speeding up Poker games

50 hands is the minimum to avoid a too high chancy factor, IMO. A few games are very long (longest almost 1650 moves played by each player), but that's necessary. We have to find another way... We will find, question of time!

Rolf Staggat    (2010-07-06 11:43:46)
Speeding up Poker games

In two games I play since 18 months... Please try "rapid"-games, maybe in smaller groups than 7. 10 days + 12 hours sounds good to me, maximum 30 days (not 100).

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-07-06 17:55:40)
Speeding up Poker games

(thinking... thinking...)

okay I agree that the accumulated 100 days limit is not relevant for poker games, I just changed it to 60 days for poker holdem! That's a lot yet but thus players will always see their clock running (as 60 is also the time per move limit) which may have a psychological effect... Let's see how this work as a first step.

Scott Nichols    (2010-08-12 23:00:35)
Speeding up Poker games

A small suggestion that would help a little. Thib could you add a "fold" button for every hand. Many times, (more recently :) my down cards are sooo bad, I don't want to wait for the flop etc. I just want to chuck them and get on with the next hand. Does anybody else feel this way?

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-08-13 00:58:16)
Speeding up Poker games

It is possible to enter "fold" in the text field, but I suppose I could add it anyway...

Don Groves    (2010-08-13 05:30:05)
Speeding up Poker games

I agree with Rolf. Make a Rapid Poker tournament category for the faster players.

Scott Nichols    (2010-08-13 14:45:06)
Speeding up Poker games

I didn't realize we could just type it in, thanks Thib.

Jay Melquiades    (2010-08-17 20:05:55)
Speeding up Poker games

time controls here are too slow

tell that to those who play live :)

Daniel Parmet    (2010-08-17 20:08:37)
Speeding up Poker games

time controls here are a joke. I love everything about this site and the hardwork that Thib has put in. Still I will not sugar coat it. A spade is a spade. The time controls are slower than molasses.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-08-18 00:07:41)
Speeding up Poker games

"Correspondence Poker" is not a so easy idea, even if I like the possibility to play only a few hands from time to time... Definitely some changes are needed, but we still need the good idea. Patience ;)

Jay Melquiades    (2010-08-18 00:36:42)
Speeding up Poker games

but seriously thibault ,in the poker competetions u should have a 'check/fold' button available to buth players in their games

Scott Nichols    (2010-08-18 16:47:00)
Speeding up Poker games

Again I say it's the blinds. The first blind goes on FOREVER. Then when the blinds finally start raising, they go to fast, especially after 4 to 8 and on. Then the game is over in just a few hands, taking the skill right out of the game. I say, make then even as they rise, like double every 20-25 hands.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-08-18 17:12:00)
Speeding up Poker games

Okay Jay, just added the fold button when "check" is also possible...

Scott, I still do not agree with this as I think it's really important to avoid speed poker... Do other players agree with Scott there?

Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2010-08-18 23:31:27)
Speeding up Poker games

In my opinion the new fold button is no improvement. It just confuses.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-08-19 00:58:36)
Speeding up Poker games

Actually I do not like it right now :/ .. Maybe "fold" in grey would be better in this case... Any other idea/opinion?

Scott Nichols    (2010-08-19 01:15:30)
Speeding up Poker games

I agree with Heinz, (even tho it was my idea, :) I am ok with just typing it in if needed.

Sebastian Boehme    (2010-08-19 01:29:35)
Speeding up Poker games

Maybe bringing up another idea related to speed up poker games.

What about creating an "upper time limit" for each poker game?!

Say 90 days per player for the entire game or another more suitable number. (matter of discussion and wishes of the community of course)

Just my 50 bucks added. ;-)

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-08-19 01:40:04)
Speeding up Poker games

Hi Sebi, would be too easy IMO :/ I don't think that such a solution could go without any problem... We must absolutely avoid that any game be lost on time by playing one move per day just when the opponent sleeps or something like that.

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-08-19 02:10:17)
Speeding up Poker games

Now fold is in grey if check is possible... looks a bit better... any opinion?

Don Groves    (2010-08-19 05:00:07)
Speeding up Poker games

If I hit "fold" by mistake, does it ask if I really mean it, like "resign?" If Not, I don't like the idea.

Jay Melquiades    (2010-08-19 19:54:58)
Speeding up Poker games

my chess rating is abysmal :(
played too much poker here :)

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-08-20 02:13:44)
Speeding up Poker games

One thing is sure, we probably all have to take more time before to choose the right button now... I'm not sure it's worth it :/

Scott Nichols    (2010-08-20 23:10:33)
Speeding up Poker games

Maybe if you moved the fold button a couple of inches up so it would be by itself. Less chance of a mistake hitting it that way.