Question About LeaveReflection Time


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John Knudsen    (2006-07-05)
Question About Leave/Reflection Time

Hi Thibault: Why would a person on leave accumulate 1 extra day reflection time per day, while on leave? Is this correct? If it is correct, what is the rationale behind such a weird thing, please? It doesn't make any sense, as no moves are played during a leave... John

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-05 19:14:09)
Leave/Reflection Time

That's right. You take 5 days leave, 5 days are added to your clock... This is quite logical, after the leave period your clock is the same again. The difference with other systems is you can play during your leave.

We discussed about it in another thread :

John Knudsen    (2006-07-06 06:41:08)
Leave/Reflection Time

Hi Thibault: I understand this now - thanks. And I like the limitation on accumulated reflection time - this is a great idea. Still, the stated reflection time was given as 30 days +1 per move, and when you are on leave, you are not moving. To award an extra day reflection time on days that you do not more (i.e., vacation) is not logical at all. Your reflection time should remain unchanged from the day that you last moved. Any smart guy that has not used leave, and is running out of time on his games will just take his 30 days leave, and presto - he has 30 days more reflection time. This possibility, by itself, makes the reflection time a joke, in my opinion. John

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-06 16:35:13)
Leave/Reflection Time

This is "almost" the same..... But that's right, this is more like a time reservoir than holidays. In both cases, when you take days leave -> you have more time to think if you want to. The difference is when you play during your leave, but it seems to me that consequences are negligible and not a problem.

Just different...

I wasn't very favourable to this option, but many players ask for. Aren't there a way to take a leave in ICCF ?

John Knudsen    (2006-07-06 18:33:27)
Leave/Reflection Time

Hi Thibault: Of course you can take leave in any cc organization. FICGS, however, is the only one that I am aware of that, not only do you get annual leave, but also 1 day extra reflection time per day of leave! :) The concept is simply ridiculous in a 30 +1 time control format. Look, I hope you don't think I just complain about stuff - there is a lot that I like here, too. I also do have a bit of experience playing serious correspondence chess (since 1978). New cc players, or OTB players, are the last people who know anything about the ins and outs of correspondence chess, IMHO. John

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-06 19:21:41)
Leave/Reflection Time

30 days is significant for this time control, indeed. But I think consequences on the play will be negligible enough. After all, most important is everyone playing with the same rules, whatever the rules.

I think rules must stay quite flexible, and players "free". ie. some players think that 10 days is enough to play a move, but it can become a real constraint in some situations. Correspondence chess here should stay a pleasure for all... It is a game of patience, and I think the "fast" time control and the 100 days limit will avoid abuses enough.

Glen D. Shields    (2006-07-08 21:05:41)
Thibault You Have a Golden Opportunity

Thibault - one of the reasons that FICGS has grown so quickly is that you've welcomed input and implented the things the players have asked for. John is right on this issue. I urge you to listen to him. Take this opportunity and make FICGS the chess server that leads the way in establishing logical time rules.

Here are some suggestions for regular tournaments. You and others can build on these:
- 30 days start +2 days added per move
- 100 days maximum accumulated time
- 30 days maximum limit for one move
- 4 weeks (28 days) annual leave
- no time lost or added during leaves
- no moves made during leaves
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes

My recommendation for rapid tournaments are:
- 14 days start +1 day added per move
- 30 days maximum accumulated time
- 10 days maximum limit for one move
- 2 weeks (14 days) annual leave
- no time added or lost during leaves
- no moves made during leaves
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes

I recommend you let the server automatically handle time limit oversteps and make no exceptions. The only exception I would offer is if someone is ill or injured and needs to take an extended medical leave (these things happen). Let there be an option for that player to file an approved leave with you.

Thibault love your server and the hard work you put into it. You and others feel free to critique my suggestions. I strongly urge you to use this opportunity to lead the world in logical time rules. You don't have federations or tempermental world champions to appease. You are the boss. Do it RIGHT. Good luck.

Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-07-09 00:46:13)
Leave/Reflection Time

Dear chessfriends!

In my dreams a perfect server has the following time rules.

Normal tournaments:

- 30 days with an increment of 30 days/ 10 moves
- 100 days maximum accumulated time
- 30 days maximum limit for one move
- 4 weeks leave per tournament (!) for every year since the start of the tournament
- no time lost or added during leaves
- a move in a tournament during a leave stops the leave in all games of this tournament
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes

Rapid tournaments

- 30 days start +1 day added per move
- 45 days maximum accumulated time
- 30 days maximum limit for one move
- no leave
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes

By the way, the world championship should not be a rapid tournament.

But how I said these are my dreams ...

Alarich Lenz    (2006-07-09 15:40:32)
Leave/Reflection Time

whats the maximum limit for one move in the FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1 tournament?

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-10 01:24:28)
Limit for one move

Hello Alarich.

The rule is the same for all time controls : Limit is 60 days for one move, appearing between brackets if this time is inferior to total time for the game. The idea was first not to constraint players. (so there's practically no limit but the total time in WCH time control : 30 days + 1 day per move)

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-10 02:04:36)
Vacation and reflection time

Hi John, Glen & Heinz-Georg. Thanks for all suggestions... ;)

Some responses, particularly about vacation (towards a compromise ?) :

* 30 days + 2 days/move : Not "beautiful" (not a joke, it is design matter)

* 30 days max for one move : Not convinced it can really bring something... if a player want to last a CC game, I think no reasonable rule (without human factor) can prevent him to do so.

* 14 days + 1 day/move (rapid) : As players don't know exactly when tournaments will start, I think 30 days at start (ie. compared : email tournaments often start before the real date) is a good choice to avoid accidental forfeits during holidays !

* 2 weeks annual leave : Even for different time controls, I'm not favourable to make too many different rules.. 30 days (for all games per year) is a balanced choice IMO.

* Vacation : Ok, I make note of this. I was not favourable to any leave system, cause it's obviously a way to have days more in time trouble, even if time is frozen ! .. That's why I made it "hard" to use.. If players can stop their leave when they want, just by playing a move, it becomes easier to manage time trouble situations. The 60 days rule for 1 move was a solution avoiding vacation IMO but we discussed it already... Now I'm to decide to change the vacation rule, as John (& you) urged me. I thought it was a good thing not to prevent players to make moves during the leave... Maybe most think different, ok... However I have a problem yet with vacation as it's really a way to get more reflection time... Here is what I suggest, simply a harder rule : Players who take days leave CAN'T play during their vacation and CAN'T take days back (stopping their leave by playing a move) ! Then 2 options, players must wait their vacation end date to play again, or they can play, but provoking the cancellation of their leave (loosing the days leave taken and not used yet).. Maybe it won't be appreciated in some particular cases if players have to modify their plans, but the aim is clearly to reduce the vacation effect on the game... What do you think ?

Glen D. Shields    (2006-07-10 15:21:09)
Sounds good ....

Thibault - thanks for the feedback and your openess to make changes in the vacation rules.

It's important to get some of these rules right while the player list is still relatively small and the players are still geting use to playing at FICGS. It will be harder to make rule changes in the future.

The 100 day maximum you set on accumulated time establishes FICGS as the trend setter in how to manage modern correspondence chess games. Excellent decision! Much of the problems people talk about in time control are prevented by the addition of this rule.

I'm sure you are aware the IECG has a 30 day maximum per move and the ICCF a 40 day maximum. The IECG limit is firm. You exceed 30 days once you lose. The ICCF's rule is unclear and unevenly managed. You reach 40 days, you need to beg the TD to do something. Sometimes he helps, sometimes he doesn't. Not a good situation.

Whatever limit you set at FICGS, I recommend you keep it firm and automatic like IECG. Personally I prefer 30 days, you prefer 60. IMHO 30 days is plenty of time to make a move is someone is serious about playing. 60 days is too long to wait. My preference is to make the rules enjoyable for those who want to play, not for those who sign up and then get "busy" and rudely make their opponents sit and wait. IMHO you'll attract and keep a better membership base by making the rules player friendly, not player annoying.

Thanks again. My best to you.

Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-07-10 20:06:15)
Vacation and reflection time

Hi Thibault

Vacation seems to be a great problem on all chess servers. The way you manage it is very special. I don't think, that your way is "hard to use". Of course you can always abuse vacation to have more time in time trouble. But your way is very easy. Take 10 days of vacation and play on. And at the end of a year add the not consumed vacation to the reflection time of all of your games.

Now you suggest that a player can not play during his vacation. That is ok. But if the player starts playing during his vacation "loosing the days leave taken and not used yet" is not ok. "Maybe it won't be appreciated in some particular cases". Too much and unnecessary administration. Let the server work.

You don't want to give up your concept (adding vacation time to the reflection time), am I right? You already have announced the corrections on "My messages". If you must change your concept, you would have to rewrite parts of the software.

Nevertheless I would like to say how I imagine the vacation rules on my "perfect server".

I can make the following things with my 4 weeks of holiday:

- If I'm on holiday far away from home or don't like to play chess for a while, I can take a leave in all tournaments.
- If I have much work (sorry - I had to earn money and my employer doesn't take it into consideration, that I would like to play more chess) and can't take care of all tournaments for a while, I take a leave in single tournaments. If the overload is past, I play on without losing the vacation which I perhaps haven't taken.
- I cannot take a leave in a rapid tournament. That is ok - rapid means rapid. There shouldn't be any way to get more time for reflection in this kind of tournament.

It's a pity that no more players express their opinion on this topic in this forum.

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-11 02:18:11)
Vacation and reflection time

Hello Heinz-Georg.

Of course I'll change the software, that's not a problem. What is important is to find the best solution to this issue... Time will be frozen during vacation.

There are several other ways to make it harder to use. Maybe it could be interesting to have no choice (or less) on the numbers of days you can take - ie. only 10 days by 10 days.

Gino Figlio    (2006-07-11 03:59:17)

Hi Thibault, Everyone has their own opinion about this. Do what you think it's best. My opinion: If you want to mimic the ICCF method, don't allow play during leave and change to programming to freeze the clock when a player takes leave, therefore not adding the leave time to the reflection time. If you want to continue with your original idea of adding the leave to the reflection time, then add only 50% of the time, since the clock stops for the player on leave when the opponent is on move anyway. You may suggest players to take leave after they make a move, in order to take maximun benefit. Other ideas related to preventing players from dragging out lost games/positions would be to establish a lower limit for leave time say of 7 days; preventing players from going on/off leave multiple times; to prevent exceeding the reflection time. Another approach would be to try to regulate more the higher limit of time per move, by allowing players to take 30 days per move only once, 20 days per move 3 times, 10 days per move 9 times..etc. you can change the numbers to fit your desire but you get the idea. Best, Gino

Rodrigo Jaroszewski    (2006-07-11 22:14:16)
A question

Thibault wrote concerning rapid clock: "* 14 days + 1 day/move (rapid) : As players don't know exactly when tournaments will start, I think 30 days at start (ie. compared : email tournaments often start before the real date) is a good choice to avoid accidental forfeits during holidays !" Since your concern is with the first moves, how about using the 14 days + 1 move/day suggestion, but on the first two plies (e.g.: 1.e4 c5) you add a second clock that would give a period of 10 days for White and Black (separately) to know the game is on, before they make their first moves? It'd go like this: White has 10 days on this "grace period" + 14 days. Two possibilities: 1) He makes his first move. The time he had remaining on his "grace period" is removed, and he would have the 14 days. He would not get an additional day for it. 2) He does not make the move on the "grace period" and his 14 days clock starts running down. When he does move, one day will be added, as it normally would. When White moves (if White ever moves), then: 3) Black makes his first move. The remaining of his "grace period" is removed, his 14 days remain, no days are added. Or, 4) Black does not make a move in the "grace period", his 14 days clock begins to run. If he makes a move, he'll gain the day, as he normally would. In both cases, no more "grace periods" would be added for the rest of the game, and White's clock would start running with 14 days or less, depending if (1) or (2) happened. I'm not sure if I was clear, neither if it is actually possible to do so. It's just a suggestion. I also hope that the forum does not clutter my message. :)

Rodrigo Jaroszewski    (2006-07-11 22:15:18)

I forgot to use the br tags, sorry. :(

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-12 23:12:46)
Delay before tournament start

Hello Rodrigo.

I think your idea looks like very much the system used in email chess. I just wanted to make it easier to understand. Quite strange to make moves and have no days added to the clock. "Official" and "non-official" start for a tournament is a thing we can avoid. That's the main reason of this time control 30 days + 1 day/move.

Paul-Iosif Guralivu    (2006-07-13 22:02:02)
Days for a move

I a player doesn't move for about 20 day... I think his games should be declared as lost.... I don't know what is the actual limit... but it's look like is bigger than 40 days

Don Groves    (2006-07-14 02:59:50)
Time limit per move

I feel there should be a firm limit (I would like to see 10 days) and a penalty for exceeding it: (1) Subtract one day from offending player's clock for each day over the limit. (2) If limit is exceeded more than double, game is forfeited. If player cannot abide by these time constraints, they should take leave (or perhaps play in fewer games ;-) Also, I agree with the idea of no moves at all during leave. Leave is leave from FICGS, not just from one game or tournament. Regards to all, Don

Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-15 13:21:58)
Time limit per move

The idea is interesting, however it could be difficult to display the remaining days (confusing)...

About the 60 days limit, I think there are clear advantages, and the bad effects are not so important if you consider there's no real way to prevent a player to last a game and the rating period of 2 months. The point that makes it difficult to compare to other organizations is some FICGS rules are harder : All lost games are rated, forfeits or not... I think this rules takes off some pressure. And many players can't assume regular play. Players who think 60 days per move is too long may play only rapid tournaments...