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Herbert Kruse (2021-03-27)
if someone goes all in all games and loses, why i dont get a rating?
do i have to fold??
Herbert Kruse (2021-03-28 15:10:13)
This rule has good reasons to be maintained, whatever the game played : at least 10 moves must have been played so that it be rated...
so if my opp goes all in and i have 2 aces i have to fold to get a rating win?
how can this be my fault?
Herbert Kruse (2021-03-28 15:11:55)
Herbert Kruse (2021-03-28 15:13:21)
firtst i had 2 aces, 2nd 2 6ces and last K9
Herbert Kruse (2021-03-28 15:14:55)
and i only called, he went all in - thats so unfair
Herbert Kruse (2021-03-28 15:42:14)
i looked into the rules and didnt found any part, where at least 10 moves had to be played
and this rule would only make sence for chess and not poker
Thibault de Vassal (2021-03-29 01:20:13)
It is not a question of "fault". It is a rule, nothing more. And yes, it does make sense in poker as well, exactly the same way (and it is possible to checkmate in less than 10 moves).
Christoph Schroeder (2021-04-03 12:51:26)
I really don't get the point of disallowing the rating of short games. It is like saying: "If a football team scores a goal within the first 5 minutes, the game result is cancelled (how dare they score so quickly?)."
In chess: What is the justification for handling a blundering of a piece at move nine (game not rated) differently from blundering a piece at move 11 (game rated)?
In poker, Herberts example shows the whole absurdity of the rule. If you are playing a maniac, such games can happen. What is the reason for not rating these games?
Don Groves (2021-04-03 19:38:10)
I agree with Christoph!
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-06 01:15:09)
In my opinion it would be more like saying: "If a football team shows probable non-sportsmanship by playing without any effort...", in many competitions the result is impacted by such behaviour, in some cases the game is adjudicated.
Why move 10 ? Only because we need a clear rule. It is a choice and just like most rules, once we know it, we have to accept it to continue the game (and casually adapt our way to play). Anyway this rule was very efficient as for rapid forfeits, it is really useful.
Christoph Schroeder (2021-04-06 08:53:31)
In OTB chess I once lost a tournament game in 10 moves, blundering a winning combination by my opponent. Was my resignation at move 10 non-sportsmanlike?
The reason for losing quickly is most probably a lack of skill or an oversight by one player. Both things happen every day and are part of the game. No reason not to rate the game.
The consequence of this rule is outright ridiculous: a player who has the chance to mate his opponent before move 10, would have to refrain from mating and intentially play weaker moves, hoping that his opponent will resign only after move 10. I think noone really wants to see games like that.
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-07 01:18:50)
No, it wasn't non-sportsmanlike for sure, good example... but should this game really be rated? (rated for the winner I mean, you lost some points in this case)
The other problem is that players trying to manipulate ratings could do the same and reality is that they do not (or very rarely) when there are 10 moves at least to play, so this rule is efficient to prevent this. And as we all know, no rule is perfect for everyone.
You are right, lasting a won game to move 10 would be strange but it is a choice and a price to pay... the main thing is that it should be rare.
Don Groves (2021-04-07 01:53:29)
Sorry, Thib, but I think this is bad rule. We enter games in good faith that they will be rated, not doing so violates that good faith.
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-08 00:27:08)
Well, let's try to gather more opinions here... if players want such a change, it is possible.
Ilmars Cirulis (2021-04-11 13:54:18)
Imo, the 10 move rule doesn't make sense for poker. It should be turned off (for poker only).
Don Groves (2021-04-11 16:57:33)
Why does it make sense for chess?
Ilmars Cirulis (2021-04-11 17:55:56)
Dunno, but it makes a bit more sense for chess (not sure if enough, and mostly I don't care as all my games are more than 10 moves anyway).
Poker has this option to go all-in which is legit move and sometimes can cause legit games that are less than 10 moves short. (If a player is crazy enough.)
Daniel Parmet (2021-04-11 21:54:28)
I agree with Herbert.
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-12 12:16:37)
Thank you Daniel. Any others?
Yeturu Aahlad (2021-04-12 19:10:42)
At big chess, it is fairly common for one side - typically Black - to be down a pawn early in the game. I have had at least one opponent immediately resign. At Go, a player may blunder in a corner and immediately resign.
On the other hand, I have won many games on time and in many of those cases, the opponent didn't make any moves at all.
Perhaps a subjective challenge deserves a subjective response - I am seeing sound arguments on both sides. Suggestion - if a game concludes under 10 moves, and the winner thinks she has a genuine grievance, she can appeal for the ELO grant and a referee will adjudicate. Herbert's case is very strong. If the losing side didn't make any moves, adjudication need not be allowed, or may be automatically denied. Too many frivolous appeals from a player can lead to disciplinary action including a loss of this privilege. (I don't expect that to happen in this community)
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-13 01:04:44)
This rule was added when, more than 10 years ago, players asked for a non-subjective system, as automatic as possible (more algorithm, less human referees)... it looks like the debate is still open :)
Don Groves (2021-04-14 05:38:21)
I recently had a Go tournament in which all six of my opponents failed to make even one move. Shouldn't this affect their ratings?
Yeturu Aahlad (2021-04-14 13:15:33)
Yes, their rating is affected.
Don Groves (2021-04-14 19:46:39)
Yet fewer than ten moves were made.
Yeturu Aahlad (2021-04-14 20:18:27)
Yes - the current controversy is not about whether the loser should be punished. It is about whether the winner should be rewarded.
Don Groves (2021-04-15 05:01:39)
If loser is punished, how can the winner not be rewarded? The game is either rated or it is not.
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-15 14:39:10)
Any player who forfeits without a good reason should lose some points IMO (maybe more or maybe less than a regular lost game, but here it is equal at the moment)... but should a player who wins such a game be rewarded when he played 0, 1 or 5 moves? I don't think so. If it was the case, it would be much easier to manipulate ratings.
Don Groves (2021-04-15 22:35:10)
In other words, such games are half-rated.
Daniel Parmet (2021-04-15 22:41:32)
Half rating games seems like a potential equitable solution where you at least gain 1 rating point / an idea anyways. It's merits TBD.
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-16 14:35:19)
To graduate a %-rated according to the number of moves played would not be a bad idea... why not.
Don Groves (2021-04-16 22:49:33)
Do other chess sites have rules similar to those here?
Herbert Kruse (2021-04-25 17:00:30)
2 more senseless rules:
u can fold after a check
and u can resign a pokergame
Thibault de Vassal (2021-04-26 23:50:30)
Don, I can't say...
Herbert, yes I always do something different ^^ you may be right but at least one player asked for that fold-after-check option in this forum (AFAIR) and well, why not.
Herbert Kruse (2021-05-08 17:51:32)
because these are real cheating, the other one (all in) is just playing high risc
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