Important issue Moves taken back

  
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Thibault de Vassal    (2009-09-22)
Important issue : Moves taken back

Hello all,

A player (no need to specify the game, at least not yet) asked me as the FICGS admin to take back his opponent's move which is an obvious mistake. In this case both players agree to take back the move to not waste the game, after that the player who made the mistake kindly asked to the other player if it was possible take back the move. At this point, all depended of the other player's fair play, but of course only the FICGS admin can take back a move in any game.

However I just wonder if it is fair in all cases to do this, particularly when a player shows a great fair play in all his games.

I've just read the rules again and nothing is mentioned on this and what should do the FICGS admin (or tournament director). Note, I've already taken back a few moves when both players agreed to do this in the past.

Question, not really a poll but your opinion would be appreciated : Do you think that the FICGS admin should...

1) take back all moves in this case.
2) take back some moves in this case (at his discretion).
3) never take back any move even in this case.

IMO, choice 2) is the best one as more or less complex cases may happen, what do you think ?

Thanks for sharing your views !


Wayne Lowrance    (2009-09-22 20:13:41)
Take Backs

Thibault allow take backs if both parties agree. Very refreshing situation, I like it. #2 please
Wayne


Hannes Rada    (2009-09-22 21:48:50)
Depends

imho on the type of tournament.
It could be problemantic in round robin tournamens, as there are also other players involved.
Seems to be okay in a knockout tournament where only the 2 players are involved.


Thibault de Vassal    (2009-09-22 21:57:22)
Round robin tournaments

Very true, this is even more complex when taking account of this point !

So do you think that there shouldn't be any move taken back in round-robin tournaments ?


Daniel Parmet    (2009-09-22 22:07:10)
#2

#2 please cause I think you need to allow it if its something obvious like Kf1 instead of castling.


William Taylor    (2009-09-22 22:16:32)
#2

I also vote for number 2.

Regarding Hannes Rada's point about the decision also affecting other players in a round-robin - this is also true to a lesser extent in elims, as it could affect who somebody's opponent is in the next round. Personally I don't think these considerations are very important if it is an obvious mouse-slip (such as Kf1 instead of O-O) and I certainly wouldn't want you to get the agreement of everyone in the tournament before allowing a takeback.


Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2009-09-23 00:11:35)
#3

Hello all,

I vote for number 3). It's not the task of the admin to correct my faults.

Only if a program error was the cause for a mistake, the administrator may correct.


Wayne Lowrance    (2009-09-23 02:50:06)
after review

After further consideration and reviewing the responses, I change my vote to #3. After OTB touch-move !no take backs. 2 is the polite thing to do and that influenced me. But there are other considerations. Thibault, keep it simple, no take backs. I have miss moved here but accepted it as the rule !
Wayne


Daniel Parmet    (2009-09-23 03:44:25)
NO OTB Comparisions

I'm sorry I play 160 otb games a year I find this comparison unfair... OTB any touching of a piece or movement of a piece cannot be an accident. In corr and online games it is easy to have such accidents that are out of your control. After all there is no touch move rule in corr at all. I can touch the pieces come back later touch them again and repeatedly do this only submitting my move 60 days later after having touch every piece 100s of times.

Most online chess leagues have take back rules for obvious things like kf1 instead of castling.


Garvin Gray    (2009-09-23 04:20:52)
3.

No take backs.


Iouri Basiliev    (2009-09-23 08:18:03)
Iouri Basiliev

#3.


Thibault de Vassal    (2009-09-23 11:19:51)
Big debate

The debate is growing and things are just getting more fuzzy :)

I do not really agree on the comparison with OTB chess, accidents may happen also (less often) eg. when you're lost in your thoughts... anyway, I guess that there is no takeback at ICCF, am I right ?

Of course this rule will also apply for the other games (big chess, Go, poker holdem). Right now, my opinion is not clear yet :/


Scott Nichols    (2009-09-23 12:14:26)
#3

This is the only choice IMO. Any result achieved after a takeback would be hollow even if both players had agreed. Any brilliancy, comeback etc. would always have that "Good game, but...there was that takeback."


Thibault de Vassal    (2009-09-23 12:57:10)
Fair play

I must say that the argument "and if one player does not agree he/she is a bad boy/girl" is also very relevant IMO.

So in cases #1 & #2 it is up to the players to show some fair play or not, it may create rare abusive & unfair situations but it is probably too much already. I'm probably to choose #3 also (finally) because of this.


Wayne Lowrance    (2009-09-23 18:01:36)
okey dokie

I guess OTB is not a fair comparison. My vote is still #3
Wayne


Michael Sharland    (2009-09-24 20:16:32)
#3 is the only fair choice

I've lost several games and tournaments due to carelessly inputing a move but I can't imagine ever asking my opponent for a redo. In the same vein, I wouldn't like to be put on the spot of being asked for a take back that I would not ask for myself. This make #3 the only fair choice. Everybody has to live with their mistakes. That is sensible and fair.


Anderson Barradas    (2009-09-25 07:22:58)
My opinion

I think option 3 is the only possible. First option could make games longer than they already are, and second could lead to abuses.


Don Groves    (2009-09-25 08:14:23)
My 0.02 Euros

I'm against taking back moves but what about other mistaken things, like accidently resigning instead of offering or accepting a draw?

Maybe I should just use slow moves ;-)


Thibault de Vassal    (2009-09-25 13:08:07)
.. accidently resigning

It happened already and as both players agreed to play on, I corrected the game. But I guess it should be the same punishment... I think I'll add a javascript alert when checking the "resign" box.


Daniel Parmet    (2009-09-25 18:07:10)
good idea

yes please add java script to resign as confirm box.


Garvin Gray    (2009-09-25 20:24:24)
offer both

Adding an alert for both offering a draw and resigning would be good and I think the safe thing to do.


Garvin Gray    (2009-09-25 20:25:21)
need edit function lol

Should have added, and also an alert for when accepting a draw.


Alex Savu    (2009-09-26 01:56:31)
No take backs

#3
The only exception should be software error. It's just one more administrative intervention that really isn't necessary.

Also, I received a message in a game, and didn't read it before moving...the message (accidentally) went away to oblivion. Is there a way to fix this?

-Alex


Scott Nichols    (2009-09-26 03:34:48)
One more javascript

One I would love to see is a box opening up after a pawn reaches the eighth rank giving you a choice of Q-R-N-B. The current way is confusing for beginners like when it happened to me and cost me a berth in the second round of the WCH.


Pio Ziegler    (2009-09-26 12:37:05)
Never

IMO #3 is the best way to avoid needless debates. ;-)


Thibault de Vassal    (2009-09-27 01:35:59)
#3, finally

Let's do it. I'll modifiy the rules to choice #3 and there will be no move taken back in ANY case from now.

Thanks all for sharing your views, it was really helpful ! :)


Thibault de Vassal    (2009-09-28 19:53:18)
Rules modified & javascript added

The changes are now effective, no move will be taken back in any case ! (a javascript confirm window has been added to avoid accidental draw offers or resignations)

Thanks again for your help !









 

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