GO Game 32800


GO: Game 32800

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Ulrich Imbeck    (2009-06-23)
GO: Game 32800

In Game 32800 (GO) black, a DAN-player, began with 1.q15 d4 2.q5 d16 3.f3 c6 4.k4

1.q15 and 2.q5 can't be the best.

1.q16 and 2.q4 is risky enough.

Thibault de Vassal    (2009-06-23 17:00:16)
Strange Joseki

GoPosition (see diagram)

(reminder : see Help to know how to post a diagram)

Hi Ulrich, that's why I like Go :) .. It reminds me certain gambits in chess.. theorically inferior (actually I'm not even sure here) but if you don't know the lines, you're done !

Don Groves played this joseki against me a few weeks ago (games 30935 & 30934) for the first time, obviously it is very interesting against a player who did not experience it before... If White plays q3 or q17 after that (which I did), he may have no space enough quickly and Black may build big shapes. Well, I'm not strong enough to bring an interesting comment on this joseki anyway, maybe Mikhail can share some ideas on this :)

   a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t

Alejandro Suarez-Moreno    (2009-06-24 00:43:28)
Strange joseki do it by a good player

Hi Ulrich and Thibault,
this joseki present a good problem. Black stones are ready to form a big shape on the right side and white have to decide "a fast fight for these corners or a strategical fight for zones of influence". I played many games with Don Groves and his style is strong. Maybe he is not dan player, but you'll have to fight very hard for the victory against him!
On the diagram I prefer 4...o16, or 4...r10. The invasion to back corner still remain possible and black attention have to put here during many plays.

Ulrich Imbeck    (2009-06-24 01:01:32)

Yes, 4...o16, or 4...r10

I thaught like Thibault did, q3 or q17, to fight in blacks backside

Don Groves    (2009-06-24 04:13:16)
Strange joseki

Hola Alejandro and thanks for the compliment! I hope I can live up to it in these games ;-)

My feeling about opening on the 5,4 point is that (1) if the opponent invades the corner, I can keep her/him to a small territory there and gain a lot to the outside, and (2) if s/he does not invade the corner, then I could achieve a fairly large corner.

I would greatly appreciate hearing comments from Dan players about this strategy.

Alejandro Suarez-Moreno    (2009-06-24 23:18:06)
Strange Joseki

Hi Don, I accept your invitation to discuss the strategy over your joseki.

I don't like to invade suddenly the black corner. If we play q3 then you have to play very exactly. White stones are in dangerous and black can use it to gain influence toward the center and, in the same time, try to kill the white dragon. I remember the comentary of Thibault: "may have no space enough quickly" and I believe him!

But r10 try to avoid this situation and white can make a basis to attack the black shape on top board or fight in the center.

Maybe Ulrich and Thibault can tell us the strategy of play q3.

Ulrich Imbeck    (2009-07-24 22:26:05)
q3 against a large corner and the side

4. ...q3 or 4....q17, to fight in blacks backside, were only instinctive reactions of mine.

4. ...o16 or 4. ...r10 are very logical too.

If White don't invade the corner with q3, Black will achieve a large corner and that side.

Svante Carl von Erichsen    (2009-07-29 00:41:23)
Unusual doesn't mean bad

I think that this is a perfectly valid opening. There have been much stranger openings that have been played by professionals, even though they appear to be "obviously inferior to standard play" (which this opening does not, in my opinion). I'd like to hear a solid reasoning for the stament that Black's first two moves "can't be best".

Ulrich Imbeck    (2009-07-30 00:41:46)
opening score statistics

Do opening score statistics exist in Go?

Don Groves    (2009-07-30 04:44:35)
opening statistcs

Hi, Ulrich -- I googled "fuseki statistics" and found several links.

Ulrich Imbeck    (2009-08-03 10:47:35)
5-3 enclosure

I found 5-3 enclosures.

Ulrich Imbeck    (2009-08-03 11:05:44)
3454 enclosure

Now I saw 3454 enclosure

Ulrich Imbeck    (2010-02-02 00:17:32)

I'll use this thread for further discussion

Lazaro Munoz    (2010-02-03 14:39:33)
GO: Game 32800

There is a game Shengxian-Xiangren, rotated a bit:
(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo:] GN[s2005-08-09tc] PW[Huang Xiangren]WR[4p] PB[Lin Shengxian]BR[7p] EV[Guoshou (Taiwan), 1st]RO[League] DT[2005-08-09] KM[6.5] RE[W+10.5] T[Region:Taiwan];B[od];W[dp];B[pq];W[po] ;B[ed];W[qq];B[qk];W[pr];B[oq];W[or] ;B[qp];W[pp];B[nq];W[rq];B[qd];W[kc] ;B[ic];W[gc];B[eb];W[ib];B[hb];W[ob] ;B[jb];W[pc];B[pd];W[kb];B[ie];W[nc] ;B[qb];W[dc];B[ec];W[ce];B[cg];W[dd] ;B[ef];W[db];B[cn];W[fp];B[en];W[gn] ;B[jp];W[fl];B[dl];W[co];B[bn];W[hp] ;B[no];W[qi];B[oj];W[qc];B[rc];W[rb] ;B[sb];W[oh];B[ra];W[nd];B[ne];W[me] ;B[nf];W[mh];B[lg];W[id];B[hd];W[jd] ;B[hc];W[le];B[ki];W[nj];B[nk];W[mg] ;B[gm];W[mj];B[bf];W[be];B[hm];W[hk] ;B[jl];W[ei];B[ci];W[hh];B[ii];W[hi] ;B[ij];W[eg];B[cq];W[dq];B[bp];W[cr] ;B[br];W[cp];B[bq];W[jq];B[kq];W[iq] ;B[qn];W[qo];B[pn];W[qg];B[kr];W[mk] ;B[ok];W[re];B[pb];W[nr];B[oo];W[rn] ;B[rm];W[ro];B[ph];W[pg];B[pi];W[qh] ;B[og];W[mf];B[dr];W[er];B[cs];W[ff] ;B[ml];W[ee];B[gd];W[cj];B[bj];W[ck] ;B[bk];W[cl];B[el];W[ek];B[di];W[dh] ;B[df];W[ch];B[bh];W[bl];B[ak];W[dj] ;B[bi];W[de];B[dg];W[eh];B[da];W[ca] ;B[ea];W[bb];B[gk];W[gl];B[fm];W[hj] ;B[hl];W[fk];B[pf];W[rj];B[rk];W[oc] ;B[rd];W[oi];B[pj];W[qf];B[qe];W[sf] ;B[is];W[hr];B[io];W[kk];B[ll];W[ik] ;B[jk];W[kj];B[jj];W[mr];B[gg];W[fe] ;B[hf];W[bg];B[ag];W[cf];B[bg];W[bo] ;B[al];W[ao];B[es];W[fr];B[mq];W[hn] ;B[in];W[ka];B[eo];W[ep];B[sj];W[si] ;B[qj];W[sk];B[sl];W[rg];B[je];W[jc] ;B[ia];W[lr];B[lq];W[gh];B[kl];W[li] ;B[lk];W[lj];B[lh];W[ni];B[jh];W[ng] ;B[of];W[kf];B[bm];W[dk];B[sj];W[ri] ;B[sd];W[se];B[oa];W[na];B[pa];W[dm] ;B[em];W[dn];B[ai];W[il];B[im];W[fd] ;B[fc];W[ja];B[ib];W[fs];B[ds];W[ke] ;B[fg];W[fh];B[go];W[ho];B[fo];W[gp] ;B[ls];W[ms];B[ks];W[op];B[np];W[ih] ;B[sn];W[so];B[ap];W[jg];B[kh];W[hs] ;B[ae];W[ad];B[ip];W[ir];B[js];W[hg] ;B[gf];W[if];B[he];W[jf];B[af];W[sk] ;B[bd];W[ac];B[sj];W[sm];B[sk];W[sn])

Thibault de Vassal    (2010-02-03 16:52:19)
Huang Xiangren 4p vs Lin Shengxian 7p

The first black moves looks very interesting and indeed it rotates... I feel I'm not strong enough to start to understand this.

Ulrich Imbeck    (2010-05-31 00:53:13)
GO: Game 32800

http://senseis.xmp.net/?HowToRespondToAnApproach is a link for beginners like me :-)

Wilhelm Schuett    (2010-09-16 21:38:42)
GO: Game 32800

http://senseis.xmp.net/ seems to be a kind of gopedia :-)

Wilhelm Schuett    (2010-11-21 01:49:21)
GO: Game 32800

i just saw
it has a Joseki Tutor

Don Groves    (2010-11-21 08:32:16)
GO: Game 32800

The moves under discussion in this thread are fuseki, not joseki. Joseki are certain patterns of moves primarily used when fighting in corners. Fuseki are initial moves, literally "the scattering of the stones."

Thibault Pillon    (2010-11-30 19:25:02)
GO: Game 32800

fuseki.info has a fuseki database with win/loss statistics for each move. UNfortunately the database is not very large

Wilhelm Schuett    (2010-12-12 13:56:08)
GO: Game 32800