Figlio Schuster


Figlio - Schuster

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Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-06-14)
Figlio - Schuster

...that's the first final of FICGS-WCH!

Ilmars Cirulis    (2007-06-14 09:31:24)
Figlio - Schuster

Finally we will have champion!!

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-06-14 10:04:00)
Figlio - Schuster

Before champion a last match has to be played between the final winner of this KO match and the over all winner of the round robin tounaments.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-06-14 13:55:15)
Figlio - Schuster

Should be an interesting opposition of styles :) .. Congrats to both players !

Hannes Rada    (2007-06-14 18:59:47)
Figlio - Schuster

It's confusing, because at Semifinal 1 we can see: 'Leader: Farit Balabaev' ??

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-06-14 20:38:14)
Figlio - Schuster

It has just been updated. Anyway in this list both players are winners of the match, but according to the WCH rule, Peter qualifies for the next round.

Hannes Rada    (2007-06-14 21:12:49)
Figlio - Schuster

<< but according to the WCH rule, Peter qualifies for the next round >> because of his lower rating ?

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-06-14 22:45:22)
Figlio - Schuster

Have a look into the WCH tournament rules: "The knockout tournament is played into 8 games matches. The special rule (avoiding short draws) is that in case of equality (4-4), the winner is the player with the strongest tournament entry rating if all games are draw, the player with the lowest tournament entry rating if not all games are draw. The winner is qualified for the next stage." Any questions?

Hannes Rada    (2007-06-14 23:18:43)
Figlio - Schuster

Oh, Thank you Wolfgang. Very complicated ... :-) Or let's say unusual.. . I would prefer a 3 stage round robin tournament based on the famous swiss-system. For me that seems to be a more fair competition.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-06-14 23:54:31)
WCH rules

Why to imitate ICCF or IECG, they do it well already... So, quite unusual but interesting IMO. The special rule for 8-games matches is a bit complicate but I think it's fair for both players this way (suggestions are welcome). Actually the more 8-games matches, the more I like this knockout format ;-)

Hannes Rada    (2007-06-15 20:19:19)
Figlio - Schuster

4:4 is imho a draw notwithstanding a rating difference. And both player oder no player should have the right to get to the next stage.

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-06-15 21:09:10)
Figlio - Schuster

Initial rating (before starting the match) is deciding!

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-06-16 02:26:35)
WCH rules

Hannes, any tournament, any championship, any game (!) is a contract that players accept before to play. As Kramnik said, the same for Topalov about FIDE WCH in Mexico... Peter made it. That is fair ! .. IMHO

Hannes Rada    (2007-06-16 07:01:30)
WCH rules

Thibault, of course you are right, because both player accepted the "terms and conditions" of the championship and they have no reason to complain. I just wanted to point out that maybe some players would not participate under such circumstances or rules.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-06-16 14:05:02)
WCH rules

Hello Hannes.

You're right, undoubtly ! .. Also, a new cycle every 6 months is a lot. But I can't see any interest to make one more round-robin cycle championship. This format is interesting & very challenging IMO, maybe it can be improved yet but let's see in a few years :) .. 'Think different'

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-06-27 04:12:14)
Predictions ? :)

In less than two weeks, this promising 8-games match will start... Any predictions ? .. How many pawns will Peter give to his opponent to find beautiful attacks ? :) .. He'll probably have to avoid draws anyway. I think Gino has good chances in this match.

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-06-27 07:14:19)
Figlio - Schuster

They've played already a correspondence chess game together: Schuster - Figlio 1-0, 2003. Anyway my favorite is Peter!

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-06-27 14:14:36)
Figlio - Schuster

Hi Wolfgang.

Is it possible for you to post this game here ? (I've lost my ICCF database) .. Thanks !

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-06-27 20:25:25)
Figlio - Schuster

Peter Schuster - Gino Figlio, Corr Olympiad XV Prelim 2 Board 2, 15.01.2003 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Qd2 Nbd7 9.f4 Qc7 10.f5 Bc4 11.Bd3 Be7 12.0-0 0-0 13.Bxc4 Qxc4 14.Qd3 Qxd3 15.cxd3 b5 16.Rac1 Rfb8 17.Rfd1 Kf8 18.h3 b4 19.Na4 Rc8 20.Kf2 d5 21.Kf3 d4 22.Bd2 a5 23.Rxc8+ Rxc8 24.Rc1 Rxc1 25.Bxc1 Bd8 26.Bd2 Nb8 27.Nac5 Ke8 28.Nb7 Nc6 29.Nd6+ Ke7 30.Nc4 Ke8 31.Bg5 Ke7 32.Nc5 Bc7 33.Bh4 h6 34.a3 Nb8 35.axb4 axb4 36.g4 g5 37.Be1 Nc6 38.Na6 Bd6 39.Nxd6 Kxd6 40.Nxb4 Na5 41.Nc2 Nb3 42.Bb4+ Kd7 43.Bf8 h5 44.Bg7 hxg4+ 45.hxg4 Ke7 46.Nb4 1-0

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-15 13:30:09)
Gino Figlio

... takes the lead after two nice wins :

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-09-16 15:59:15)
Figlio - Schuster

Two white losses by Peter in one match - I can't believe it. Why he took so high risk in this special situation (he just has to hold draw in all games)?

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-16 18:22:12)
Figlio - Schuster

Untrue, tournament entry ratings (TER) are 2576 (Gino) and 2516 (Peter)... Peter had to avoid draws.

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-09-16 19:13:29)
Yes, you're right! (n.T.)


Gino Figlio    (2007-09-16 19:32:15)

If you think for a moment that I would have pretended to win a match with 8 draws then you don't know me well.

That would have been a dishonor...

The match is not over anyway.

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-09-16 20:45:57)

Playing in accordance with the rules can't be dishonor!

Gino Figlio    (2007-09-16 20:55:09)

The rules have nothing to do with honor.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-16 20:56:42)

I agree with that "Playing in accordance with the rules can't be dishonor!", but that's good fighting spirit :)

Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2007-09-17 02:18:24)
Best quotes

"The rules has nothing to do with honor"

is a nice one. It should be added to the best quotes.

Gino Figlio    (2007-09-17 03:24:19)

I wasn't trying to come up with a quote :)

But again, the rules are created to allow the game to progress to its end without difficulties, prevent conflict and in our case to break a tie.

Obviously, in this case I'm in advantage from the start given the tournament rules.
That's why if Peter evens the score and it looks like the match will end in a tie, I will resign the last game even if it is a draw.

These methods to break ties are ok in blitz or OTB games but in our type of matches where we want the superior player to qualify, it would be a dishonor to take advantage of them. At least I could not do it.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-17 05:35:42)
To tie or not to tie

Hi Gino !

"I'm in advantage from the start given the tournament rules" : Untrue IMO, according to the current situation (not all games are draw), if the match ends at tie, you'll lose it - at least qualification - in all cases ;)

In 8-games matches, like every WC round-robin tournament, fighting for the score and (&&) for ratings looks quite normal, there's no dishonor to tie, winning or losing the right to move to the next round. Definitely rules have something to do with honor, at least with victory. Is there no honor to win a chess game with White pieces and its small advantage ?

What about ICCF WC tournaments and Sonnenborn-Berger ? .. Somewhat more complex, but ratings decide according to the situation also. What about FIDE World Championship ? .. Did Kramnik win his title / tie his match against Leko without honor ? .. FICGS rules are not more unfair than FIDE WCH ones, I'm playing an 8-games match against Farit Balabaev, his strategy is clearly to draw the 8 games and it may work, there's no dishonor in it, only good strategy IMHO.

But, of course, that's more a question of human feeling than mathematics, so only my point of view :)

Gino Figlio    (2007-09-17 06:32:59)

Hi Thibault, Thanks for clarifying the current situation, however it does not make it less true that I was in advantage at the start of the tournament. According to tournament rules I would have won with 8 draws.

Regarding wins with white, in a round robin you must try to win with white and draw with black. That's normal. In a match, only wins should be counted and not draws. Any other tournament rule intended to break a tie will fall short. A tie is a tie. You try to break it there will always be controversy one way or the other.

Have you considered a "blitz" match to break ties in future 8-game matches? 2-4 simultaneous games at 10/10 or 10/15 would be better than a coin toss...

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-17 16:18:47)

I have... Definitely I don't like the "speed up" formula, that happened ie. in the Kramnik vs. Topalov match, it changes the nature of the match and adds some more 'random' factors, up to sudden death - White must win - which is no more chess. In our case this wouldn't be correspondence chess anymore (added to potential difficulties to play blitz games).

Anyway no rule can break the tie "properly", at least this rule allows the strongest player by rating (in case of 8 draws) to move to the next stage, which is quite logical IMO.

Rodrigo Jaroszewski    (2007-09-18 06:20:30)

Wouldn't it be better to ask Peter what he thinks about this? I know some people that would actually be offended if the opponent withdrew, even if they took the upper hand because of that. This is an issue that should be discussed between Peter and Gino only, IMHO.

And for the next championship (and I'm just one guy rambling here, with hardly any chance of getting there), perhaps it could be arranged that the opponents just played 8-game matches until one of them is won. It'll take more time, but it it seems the only way it won't look fishy for one side or the other. (And sorry if fishy is a strong word.)

Gino Figlio    (2007-09-18 06:53:43)
Tie breaks

Rodrigo, I agree there must be better ways of doing this.

As far as the current match, the rules cannot be changed and I guess I will not have to withdraw since I will lose with the tie. I can see the challenge for the tournament organizer but we have to also realize that FICGS is relatively new and its ratings do not necessarily reflect player strength.

How can we decide a match based on something less than representative even if we don't have anything better?. I believe for the future ties must be broken playing chess even if it's "blitz" cc.

I also would like to stop making comments on this unfinished match, I don't want to get distracted nor distract Peter from our competition.

Hannes Rada    (2007-09-18 12:29:07)
Round robin Tournaments

FICS champion should be crowned by a round robin tournament. This seems to be more fair than these KO matches. Just my humble opinion.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-18 14:38:19)
Knockout matches

FICGS champion will be crowned by a knockout match, the best rated player has few more chances to reach the final, this is fair and his result in each match do not depend on results he's not involved in (like round-robin tournaments), which is the most interesting point IMO.

Another interesting discussion about this issue :

Andrew Stephenson    (2007-09-20 13:58:05)

I remember that used to have the opposite rule ie the player with the lower elo advanced in the knockout. I guess their reasoning was if your better rated you should be able to prove it. As Thibault mentioned he may be a victim of the FICGS rule in his match against Farit Balabaev. He has the higher TER and his opponent as taken 4 draws as white by repeating the same 15 move sequence in his 4 white games (1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd 4 Nxd Nf6 5 Nc3 a6 6 Bg5 e6 7 f4 Qb6 8 Qd2 Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10 f5 Nc6 11 fxe6 fxe6 12 Nxc6 bxc6 13 Be2 Be7 14 0-0 0-0 15 Rb3 Qc5+ 1/2 1/2) Not the greatest advert for cc games! It requires cooperation for this to happen although its dangerous for black to deviate after 9 Rb1. Still there are perfectly viable alternatives IMO in the Najdorf against 6 Bg5 other than this line. I suggest going to a 2 game mini match play off series at 5 days reserve and 1 day per move increment until there is a win. This would provide incentive to go for a result for the higher rated player in the main match. I would retain the lower rated player wins rule for decisive games (but overall draw) for the main match but leave it equal for the playoffs.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-20 16:06:36)

That's right, I remember this opposite rule at Chessfriend server. By the way it may have incited players to lose games to decrease their rating, which is somewhat easier than to increase it.

About my quarter final against Farit, it seems we both had really too many games at this moment, that explains (from me at least) these 4 short draws.

Andrew Stephenson    (2007-09-20 19:32:38)

I dont think its plausible that the rule inspired anyone to lose Thibault -it was for a memorial tournament and although there were (supposedly) cash prizes (which never trasnpired)I think it just inspired the people with the higher rating to try to win. As for your explanation as to why you just bailed out on 4 games its difficult to respond other than to say it doesn't show you supporting your own concept of an 8 game match or the importance of the FICGS "world championship" stage that you had reached. I guess you will take the IECG "world championship" more seriously. I think having 2 game play offs at a fast time rate to a decision is a better way to go.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-20 20:39:56)

As far as I can remember, this way to break the tie was used in most Chessfriend round-robin money tournaments. I have no doubt that some players would have sacrificed their ratings for more chances to win cash prizes... Highest rated players were attracted anyway because they were invited.

About my match, I was simply glad to get these 4 draws easily with the black pieces, it gave me more time to try to win with White (I was in time trouble at this moment). GM Farit Balabaev is a strong correspondence chess player, even if I lose the match, I have no regret about it. Surely I won't play my FICGS WCH games less seriously than my IECG WCH ones :) .. By the way I still hope to play the first candidates final against Gino or Peter :p

Andrew Stephenson    (2007-09-20 21:30:15)
Chess Friend

I did not think there was ever any money paid out in chess friend but I never played in any round robins so I can't comment on the tie break being used in them. As for repeating the same 15 moves in 4 games because you had too many other games it just seesm farcical to me. Everyone is a strong player at that stage but still .... My point about IECG is just that perhaps (understandably) you take that more seriously and would not agree to 4 short meaningless draws because the others are strong and you have a lot of other games going on. The point i was making is that these 4 draws resulted from your tie break system having a higher TER as your opponent attempted to draw his way to victory and you went along with it. You have set up a system that encourages this sort of approach which is anti chess and , arguably, devalues the concept of a "World Championship" What is your objection to 2 game tie breaks involving accelerated cc rates that I suggested?

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-20 21:54:21)
WCH knockout vs. round-robin

I don't know about finished money tournaments at Chessfriend, this was just the available rules I read.

About FICGS & IECG WCH, the point is one don't play the same way a knockout or a round-robin tournament, this is not a question to play seriously or not. In every FIDE WCH (knockout) final match, Kramnik and maybe even Kasparov would accept an easy draw with Black, simply because they have to save energy, as chances of win are generally defended with White (actually Kasparov even offered a short draw with White against Kramnik's Berlin defence). In IECG or ICCF WCH round-robin tournaments, draws are to be avoided at any price but many strong players think the same way: White must win, Black must draw. That's very different in matches, so the strategy. I did not play drawish openings in IECG WCH, and I'll accept short draws if I can't expect more, but it doesn't mean I take it more seriously. According to the situation, these 4 draws were quite a good choice for both Farit & me... in a way :)

Hannes Rada    (2007-09-20 22:37:49)
Chessfriend and money

I received 2 times money for winning and for 2nd place in a chess friend round robin tournament. But this was only small money about EUR 100,00 :-) And there was no tiebreak at these tournaments. In this case the players hat to share the prize money.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-20 22:41:17)

Thanks for info Hannes.

Anyway this story made a lot of noise... and I remember hot discussions at TCCMB when FICGS appeared just after Chessfriend's death :)

Andrew Stephenson    (2007-09-20 23:11:48)

Yes tournaments are different from matches but to take 50% of the match games as identical 15 move draws seems extreme and without parallel. Again it can only have been good for Farit to give up all his white games because his higher TER means he can get through by drawing his 4 black games so its really a 4 game match where black wins if he draws the 4 games. Anyway I just think it devalues the event to do that and the tie break rules encourage it - but lets agree to differ!

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-21 00:09:15)

Surely knockout format (FICGS rules or not) is not perfect, like round-robin. In this case ratings are important and a new cycle starts every 6 months. Let's agree to differ :)

Farit Balabaev    (2007-09-21 13:07:01)
Figlio - Schuster

Dier Chessfriends Thank you for the discussion. Please don't forget, that I've just suffered in the match with Schuster. The match with Thibault is an attempt to draw everybody's attention to this rule. Best wishes, Farit

Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-09-21 16:10:20)
Figlio - Schuster

I think there is no perfect way to do it right for everyone. Thibault's rule is a compromise (as others) and his special way for matches. There is no reason to cry or to be crazy about - it's just a rule. Thibault by himself just has been victim of his own rule!

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-21 18:32:12)
Break the tie

I don't consider "I'm a victim" of this rule :) .. Actually if my match finishes with 8 draws, I'll have simply failed to qualify. Farit's semi-final match with Peter shows this rule is not so unfair, they both won one game. That's probably one reason why he used this strategy against me, which may work but may not work every times. To draw all games is not so easy, it's often quite a losing strategy. Due to the fast time control, the advantage given to the highest rated player is not so big IMO.

Andrew Stephenson    (2007-09-21 18:52:24)
Tie Breaks

Farit just to clarify things, you lost your drawn match against Peter Schuster (despite being the higher rated player) because of the rule that the lower rated player wins in the event of a drawn match, where there has been at least one win by the lower rated player. So the 4 draws by you are drawing attention to the problems with the tie break by rating approach (albeit the higher rated player wins if all games drawn part of the rule) Well at least we understand your side of it - that you were actually making a point. Wolfgang I understand the rule is a compromise no need to cry however surely its right to review the experience and see if we can improve? The problem I have, based on the experience, is that it just makes the site look bad and silly to have 4 identical 15 move games. Thats not chess - in my view its absurd. So lets examine the experience and refine the process. A 2 game play off series at a very fast cc time rate ( 1-5 day reserve + 1 day increment)would, I believe, get a result. Its still a compromise because the time for cc is very short. At the same time lets re -think having the championship every 6 months idea - I think thats a big factor behind Thibault's tie break by rating rule. Its leading to overcrowding and its pretty hard to follow perhaps 1 every 9 months or year? Incidentally Thibault how do you break the tie if both have the same TER? Just a thought!

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-21 19:57:01)
Tie Breaks

A 2 game play off series at a very fast cc time rate ie. 1 day + 1 day / move would delay the next stages by up to 6 months (by stage)... I think that players would prefer to defend their chances - as you understood it - more often, and simply would prefer to play !

In case of equal TER : "If tournament entry ratings are equal, ratings when the next stage begins will be taken in account."

Finally, draws usually happen more often in matches, that's a fact. The special rule, at least, force one player to avoid it. We'll see if these short draws happen again and what are the consequences. At last, as Wolfgang said, the tie break rule is not "unfair", it is only a rule.

Andrew Stephenson    (2007-09-21 20:34:37)
Tie Breaks

Thansk for the reply Thibault. on the delay front I think it would be less than 6 months maybe 1 or 2 months. First the effect of this delay would impact on only very few top players in completing the final stages. Overall the quantity of chess games and opportunities would be unaffected as new championships start every 6 months so the amount of playing is the same. Second "If tournament entry ratings are equal, ratings when the next stage begins will be taken in account." Ok this will be rare but you cannot really be saying that a match would be decided perhaps 1 or 2 months after completion when the next rating is done? Third "The special rule, at least, force one player to avoid it." yes but it didn't did it? You took the 4 draws in 15 moves because you had too many games and your opponent was a strong player! My point is not about the unfairness of the rule Thibault its the effect of it - in this case 4 identical 15 move draws is not a good advert for the site, the World Championship FICGS or the players.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-21 22:00:03)
Tie Breaks

There are 8-games matches since the very first round, so this extra delay would happen each round (1d+1d/move means at least 4 months, also add vacation) :/ I think too long cycles is a problem. With the current formula a complete cycle (including the final match against previous winner) lasts 2 years and a half. If we add tie breaks, it could last between 4 & 5 years and more players may forget to play next rounds... I don't feel it, definitely.

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-21 22:05:26)
Other points

About the second point, there may be an improvement, undoubtly. About the third one, if there wasn't this special rule, such short draws may happen the same way and partly for the same reasons (too many games).

Thibault de Vassal    (2007-10-04 16:17:18)

A win from Peter... In the round-robin cycle final tournament, Gaetano Laghetti won his game with Black against Michael Aigner !

Andrew Stephenson    (2007-10-04 20:45:13)
Schuster win

Witty ending to the Schuster Figlio game. I always feel very uncomfortable as black in this line if e5 or c5 cannot be played. So 15 ..c5!? might do the trick eg 16 cxd5 exd5 17 dxc5 Bxc5 18 Nxd5 Nxd5 19 Rxd5 Bxe3 and it looks like black can hold this. It also gives some point to 6..Be4 inducing f3 and creating a weakness on e3 - although I have never understood why black wants to make white play f3 anyway!