FICGS chess world championship 1 amp 2

  
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Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-13)
FICGS chess world championship 1 & 2

Hello to all.

FICGS chess world championship deadline (2006 june 15) is 2 days far from now ! Here is the scheme, allowing all players who registered to start playing at the same time, without loosing the opportunity for new players to register at a later date :

As 2300+ players will enter the cycle at stage 2, the idea is to start 1st (from stage 2) and 2nd (from stage 1) world championship at the same time. Thus, all tournaments will begin at the fixed date for all players who already registered, then a new deadline will be fixed (probably in august/september), and all players registering late for chess wch would begin a tournament each time there's enough new players in the waiting list, with the condition that the ELO average of these new tournaments be equal or superior (as few as possible) to the tournaments that began on June 15.

And good luck to all... :)


Daniel De Noose    (2006-06-13 19:02:26)
?

J'ai pas tout compris. I don't understand everything with stage 1 for 2nd and stage 2 for 1st ! ;-)


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-13 19:20:19)
1st (stage 2) and 2nd (stage 1)...

Ok :)

The rules state that 2300+ players enter stage 2 of wch cycle directly. If we begin now a cycle at stage 1, they couldn't play before a while... So if first wch begin at stage 2 with 2300+ players and second at stage 1 with 2300- players at the same time, everyone can play !

Furthermore, the 1st wch will begin earlier, "a stage before", that's logical.

2300+ players registering lately could enter the 1st wch at stage 2, 2300- players registering lately could enter the 2nd wch at stage 1.


David Grosdemange    (2006-06-13 21:24:48)
....

ça ne fait que retarder le problème ! ceux qui font le premier tour , quand ils seront qualifiés pour le second , ils feront le second , mais pendant ce temps la , que feront ceux qui ont déjà fait le second tour ????


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-13 21:43:17)
Consecutive world championships

These are 2 consecutive championships, nothing more... and a new one will begin after the end of each first stage (probably each year), so ie. in about 8 months (at the end of this stage) : players involved in the 2nd stage of the 1st wch will play the 3rd stage... and they can register to play the 2nd stage of the 2nd wch too. At last, in about a year the first stage of the 3rd wch will begin...


David Grosdemange    (2006-06-13 21:58:25)
..

so players who aren't 2300 rated can't play the real first ficgs_wch ?


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-14 08:12:37)
FICGS 1st chess world championship

That's right.

However, it's more like an extra championship, it doesn't change anything for players rated under 2300, ie. a player rated 1700 who register next year couldn't play the 2nd FICGS chess championship since 2nd stage begin... But he could register for the 3rd wch.

The positive points are everyone can play immediately and 2nd wch could be a complete cycle (with a final match)


Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-06-14 12:08:12)
FICGS 1st chess world championship

Hello Thibault

I don't like your rules. I think it would have been better if all players start in the 1st wch (this time and in future cycles). It would be more attractive for the most players. What do you think is the rating average of the 1st stage groups?
I cannot remember that the 2300-restriction was in the rules when I have registered ...


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-14 13:15:33)
FICGS 1st chess world championship

Hello Heinz-Georg !

It's only a logical extension to the rule that divide the championship in a round-robin and a knockout (for the 8 best rated players) tournament. Of course, there's no rule that fit to everyone, only choices... I hope to make the most balanced ones for the whole site.

By this rule, high rated players have a stage less to play (that they would probably win) and it limits the rating gaps (otherwise it would be more like a cup). In most wch competitions, winners and high rated players/teams are qualified for an advanced stage in the tournament.. A quite common and logical system, used everywhere from football world cup [winner qualified for quarter final] to Roland-Garros [qualifications stage], FIDE world championship etc... 2300 rule is a statistical choice, used in IECG too with more parameters. (nevertheless at IECG high rated players can choose to play the first stage too, but IMO it's quite complicate)

I hope to make it as simple and attractive as possible, believe me ;) Of course (and it is mentioned in the rules- preliminaries) rules could still evolve if improvements are decided by the [future] council.

The only negative point is, indeed, only 2300+ players can play the 1st wch, that is in a way not a "complete" championship. But compared to all other positive points (first, everyone can play now), and as 2nd wch starts at the same time, I think this choice is best.

What I think to do is to send all tournament tables to players who registered on 2006 june 16. If finally there are players who don't want to play it, they'll just have to tell me within days, responding by email. It should avoid any forfeit.


Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-06-14 14:40:34)
FICGS 1st chess world championship

Hello Thibault!

Thank you for your answer.

Two points:

It isn't sure at all that a player with a rating > 2400 will win his group if he had to play a 1st stage group. The CFC-Ch 2003 has shown, that less than 50 percent of the best rating players (even players with rating > 2600) have won their qualification groups.

In the moment we have about 100 players with a rating < 2300 who have registered themselves for the wch. Their rating avarage is about 1720 (!). Is that right? This means (if I understand your rules) the wch groups of the 1st stage will have this rating (+ or - some points). In these groups for a 2200 player it is nearly impossible (even as winner of a group) to get a tournament performance > 2050 (I suspect that this is the reason that players with rating > 2300 not have to play this stage). After the first stage the distance to 2300 will be greater than before.

I have registered myself and I will play. But I'm not really satisfied with that situation.


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-14 15:02:11)
Statistics, ELO and performances

For sure, there could be a great work to do with statistics to improve little by little the rules, then we have to find the balance between easy-to-run (and understanding) rules and best ones, but I'm not sure we could improve significantly more, I'll explain why just below. Anyway that's good discussion ! :)

About performance, that's not quite true a 2200 player couldn't perform more than 2050 in stage 1. The rating system do not take account of wins when the ELO difference is superior to 350 points ! So if a 2200 player win all his games with only 2 games (ie. against 2 players rated 1900) calculated, his performance is more than 2400. Now if a 2500 player play stage 1, probably all his games won't be rated at all... Not very interesting :/


Dorel Oltean    (2006-06-15 13:14:09)
Criteria

In round-robin qualifing criteria is first number of points and then rating? In round-robin tournaments one can choose other criteria, after points, like Soneborn, number of wins, .., related to the performance one made. In rating list there are a lot of "provisional" ratings , which will become much too important.


Daniel De Noose    (2006-06-15 15:17:03)
Not very satisfy too...

Like Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff, when I registered the tournament it was announced as 1st championship and open to everyone. I don't like when rules change after the registration. Secundo, if you only reserve this 1st tournament to players with rating over 2300, you can change my rating : on the "correspondence" chess site chess-mail I'm over 2370. But as I said to you when I began here I want to improve my real rating beginning like an unrated. But if now the rating is so important to play the 1st championship, I prefer to be correctly rated. Hoping you'll change all this and play really the 1st championship with everybody.

My actual rating in "correspondence chess" :

- chess-mail : kasapov (2370)
- echecsemail : danideno (2280)
- echecsnet : danideno (2271; but it is the highest rating of this site)

Daniel


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-15 16:36:17)
Criteria

Hello Dorel and Daniel.

As you noticed, rating is quite important in FICGS world championship cycle (particularly established ratings, obtained from IECG / ICCF or after 9 games finished in FICGS) !

I think these rules are really the best choice in order to designate a world champion. It's more logical IMO to favour players who obtained previously the best results in FICGS and recognized organizations, and consequently a high rating. It takes time, of course. Even very strong players starting with a 1700 rating won't achieve a 2300 established rating before months !

Criterias in FICGS wch are (from most important to least) :

1) Winner of the previous cycle (qualify for the final match)
2) The eight best established ratings (play the KO tournament)
3) Points obtained in the wch tournaments
4) The tournament entry rating (TER)


Of course, there are some provisional ratings that will increase a lot, but it is not possible to grant a 2300 rating to any player saying so. It's already a lot of time gained that ratings from FIDE, ICCF, IECG be recognized.

Finally it is the same in IECG / ICCF : it's very hard to achieve a high rating, it's very hard to directly qualify for a 2nd stage too, it takes months, probably years in email chess...

Now, please consider this, if we start 1st wch at stage 1 : It won't change anything for your play, as the 1st stage of the 2nd wch is exactly the same... 2300+ players won't play before months... and if the rule is changed about 2300 mark and everyone playing 1st stage, probably all games for 2300+ players won't be rated with a 100% result... and at last it will be harder for you to qualify for 2nd stage...

It is a hard work to write rules as fair, balanced and interesting as possible. Rules can't satisfy everyone, sorry about that.


Daniel De Noose    (2006-06-15 17:23:38)
It is not the same !

Playing 1st or 2nd Championship is not the same because if you play only the second you can't be the first FICGS champion ! ;-) Secundo, as you explained it at the start of the site, everybody can use databases, computers, ... In that case a 1600 can beat a 2300 if he enters correctly parameters in his chess engine. Because the tournament is not again started you can correct this. After the beginning it will be harder. And what's my rating now ? ;-)


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-15 17:51:02)
Candidate and World champion...

That's right, Daniel... In another hand, the 1st wch wouldn't be complete without a final match.

Here is a suggestion : What I called 1st wch wouldn't be named 1st wch, it would be only a cycle that will designate the 1st candidate for the 1st wch title and final match... The other one will be the winner of the 1st wch cycle. And both will play the first final match for the 1st wch title. Thus everyone can play immediately, and you play in the 1st world championship.

I think it could satisfy everybody.. !? What do you think ?


Daniel De Noose    (2006-06-15 18:33:39)
Perfect !

I think like this it more equal! Don't think I hope to be the 1st champion (I don't have that ambition), but it's just to have all the players on the same level. Thanks to you ! ;-)


David Grosdemange    (2006-06-16 08:44:57)
grrrrrrrr

au départ le championnat devait démarrer le 15 avec certaines règles , et au final il démarre plus tard avec d'autres règles ........


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-16 13:21:09)
:-)

Ce (léger ?!) retard en vaut vraiment la peine, je pense. Mieux vaut un système optimisé dès le départ que de le changer au fur et à mesure.

... il y avait de toutes façons de multiples bonnes raisons pour attendre encore un peu, l'essentiel est d'avoir pu en discuter (tout le monde n'ayant pas forcément fait attention aux changements successifs et nécessaires qui ont eu lieu dans les règles ce mois ci).


Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-06-16 13:55:54)
Statistics, ELO and performances

Hello Thibault!

"About performance, that's not quite true a 2200 player couldn't perform more than 2050 in stage"

Maybe you are right, if most of the players have an established rating. But you can see at the rating list that more than 50 percent of our ratings are provisional - most of them with 1700. The question is how many of these players are good or very good (like Daniel)?


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-16 14:13:29)
Statistics, ELO and performances

Time and ratings will answer to that... It takes a few months for ratings to find themselves ! The same in FIDE and wher'ever...

Next rating list will be calculated on july 1st. :-)


Pablo Schmid    (2006-06-16 18:53:39)
...

Tournoi reporté au 1er soit disant pour que tout soit optimisé. Mais pourquoi avoir attendu le dernier moment pour commencer à modifier les règles? Surtout que les modifications ne font pas l'unanimité et qu'en général ça se fait pas de changer les règles en cours de route et cela sans vraiment avoir demandé l'avis des inscrits.


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-16 19:24:41)
Retard et explications

Bonjour Pablo.

La règle de la qualification au 2ème tour des joueurs 2300+ ne date pas d'hier, et j'avais annoncé une mise à jour des règles. Les discussions n'arrivant souvent également qu'au dernier moment, je dirais seulement : Mieux vaut tard que jamais :)

.. mieux vaut changer des règles non-optimisées avant le début des tournois qu'entre deux cycles... Je le répète, les règles changeront tant qu'elles pourront être améliorées significativement (comme partout ailleurs). Il me faut un peu de temps pour adapter et trouver de nouvelles dénominations pour les tournois (notamment celui qui permettra aux joueurs classés 2300+ de jouer avant l'heure).

Le plus important reste que le championnat attire les joueurs ayant un classement élevé comme moins élevé. Dans les règles originales, de nombreux joueurs n'auraient pas pu jouer tout de suite. Un retard reste un retard, certes... Désolé pour cela, mais je pense que ça en vaut la peine.


Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-06-18 14:10:23)
FICGS 1st wch (my last try)

Hello to all,

I think it would be better to start our 1st wch with the regular rules (knock-out and round robin)? Players with rating > 2300 who are not starting in the knock-out can start in the 1st stage of the round robin if they want. If they do not win their group they can neverthless start in the second stage (if their rating is > 2300) of the 1st wch. World champion is the winner of a 24 game knock-out between the winner of the 3rd stage round robin and the 3rd stage knock-out.

What do you think about this?


Tim Bredernitz    (2006-06-18 16:35:30)
Confused...

I understand the rules of the tournament fairly well, but I'm still having trouble figuring out when the games will start. The last post says that the deadline is June 15, but when I check the waiting list it says the deadline is July 1st. I'd just like to know when the games will start being played. Thank you.


Tim Bredernitz    (2006-06-18 16:37:45)
Sorry

In my previous post there was a typo. Please excuse. "The last post" should be "The first post." Thank you.


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-18 23:07:45)
FICGS 1st wch

Hello Heinz-Georg.

I can't see any reason why these players would enter 1st stage if there's no real motivation... Most won't play, for sure.. Logical consequence is they won't play before months... That's a pity in my opinion.

I really think we found a good compromise with Daniel, that can satisfy everyone. Thus 1st wch is a complete cycle, that will designate the 1st FICGS champion. Is there really something more to hope ?


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-18 23:20:14)
Deadline / Start date

Hello Tim.

FICGS 1st wch will start on 2006 july 1st. A new deadline will be fixed, so that players can begin other tournaments lately, but all players who entered the waiting list already will begin their games on july 1st.


Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-06-19 15:45:34)
FICGS 1st wch

Hello Thibault!

It seems that I haven't really understood what will happen on July 1st. You write "Thus 1st wch is a complete cycle". Does this mean, that the knock-out tournaments of the 8 players with the highest established rating also will start (stage 1)? If not it is not a complete cycle according to FICGS (your) rules - in my opinion.

What happens if a player has a rating > 2300 at the beginning of stage 1 and a rating < 2300 at the beginning of stage 2? May he play stage 2?
What happens if a player has a rating < 2300 at the beginning of stage 1 and a rating > 2300 at the beginning of stage 2? May he play stage 2 even if he hasn't won his round robin group? The rating at which time is essential?


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-19 18:42:16)
FICGS 1st world championship

Hello Heinz-Georg.

While watching the wch waiting list, I realized that there could be an improvement more about this "extra-group". So here is the 1st wch scheme (and next ones, without the special group in the first stage), according to the rules.

Stage 1 :

-- Knockout tournament --

FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_2__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_3__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000001

with John Anderson, Petr Makovsky, Daniel Cinca and 5 other players...

-- Round-robin tournaments --

FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_2__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_3__000001
(...)

And at last, a special and one-time group :

FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_M__000001

This will be a high rated group, with GM Nigel Davies, GM Amir Bagheri and the ~10 players 2300+ who won't play the knockout tournament according to the rules. The winner of this group will directly qualify for stage 3 round-robin final tournament (a one-time rule). The others can play stage 2 as specified in the rules.

Thus, only the 1st wch will start on july 1st. I think it's fair enough and finally everyone can play...


Stage 2 :

-- Knockout tournament --

FICGS__CHESS__WCH_SEMI_FINAL_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_SEMI_FINAL_2__000001

-- Round-robin tournaments --

FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_2_GROUP_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_2_GROUP_2__000001
(...)


Stage 3 :

-- Knockout tournament --

FICGS__CHESS__WCH_KNOCKOUT_FINAL__000001

-- Round-robin tournament --

FICGS__CHESS__WCH_ROUND_ROBIN_FINAL__000001


Stage 4 :

-- Candidates match --

FICGS__CHESS__CANDIDATES_FINAL__000001


Stage 5 :

-- Title match --

FICGS__CHESS__WORLD_CHAMPIONSHIP__000001

... if there's a world champion and if he defends his title. Consequently we won't have a stage 5 this time, but as it could happen again in the future...

That's all folks !


Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff    (2006-06-19 20:29:55)
FICGS 1st world championship

Hello Thibault,

thank you for your answer. Even I have understood this now. I have always missed the knock-out tournaments in the postings. It wasn't clear to me (and I was probably the only one ...) whether these tournaments take place also.


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-27 16:58:03)
FICGS world chess championship

A minor update in the rules that fixes many problems for future wch cycles... Nothing has changed in the rules for the 1st cycle that begins in 4 days, changes only concern next cycles, with the extension of the one-time rule mentioned above.

The equation was :

- No confusion with the cycles when entering the waiting list (2300+ players qualified for 2nd stage of the previous cycle is too confusing).

- Avoiding tournaments with too big rating gaps (and encourage high rated players to participate)

- The formula combining knockout tournament, round-robin cycle (so that everyone can play wch, with no more than 5 stages), and the final 2 players matches in the last stages.

- Making it as understable as possible...


It is now mentioned in the rules that 2300+ players will play 1st stage in high rated groups (ratings superior or equal to 2300). Winners of such groups (same criterias) will be qualified for the 3rd stage round-robin tournament, the others will play 2nd stage.

As all games are played with rapid time controls, a new cycle will probably begin every 6 months !


Wayne Lowrance    (2006-06-28 19:31:18)
Ficgs chess world championship 1&2

here is easy qurestion. I a 1800 + player at july 1 (2250+ at other correspondence cites). Now the easy question. If I should win all my rounds, will I or will I not be overall world champion. Not likely, but a nice goal to think about. I am not used to losing tournaments, never have yet, anywhere


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-06-29 10:25:55)
Ficgs correspondence chess wch 1

Easy question, easy response : Yes ! :)

A hard challenge for anyone, for sure...


Peter Konig    (2006-07-02 10:50:19)
rules & ratings

Hi, the rules on registration were different, and stating personal rating seemed just to be of informative value, no checking of numbers or anything. Now, it seems that I have a disadvantage by stating that, I feel treated second class (I wholeheartedly ackowledge that there are much stronger players around) and my motivation dropped considerably. it is like in real live. There are people earning more or less money, but they should be equal before the law (rules). That's in the spirit of 1789! Je t'embrasse, Peter Konig


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-02 12:52:15)
rules & ratings

Hello Peter.

Indeed, you were one of the very first registered players. I have fixed the rules since this time, though it seems to me this point was the same already.

Anyway, ratings of course are not only informative (like in life :)), as it allows to play class tournaments. Now, there must be a way to choose a winner in certain cases, even if there's no "perfect" way. But if you win the tournament, there's no discussion. It only lights the battle a little more... When a player register he can ask for a >1700 rating only if he has got an "official" rating already, so the influence of choice is not so important at registration.

Your reference to 1789 is amazing, but actually we ARE equal before the law (rules). Doesn't mean the law is perfectly fair, that's impossible, of course. Like in life... The rules slightly favourize the best players. Je t'embrasse itou :)


David Grosdemange    (2006-07-02 18:53:50)
qualification for 2nd round ?

how many players will be qualified for the 2nd round of the round robin tournaments ???
that's not written in the rules .....
how many groups of how many players for the 2nd round ??
and 17 is a prime number ... so there won't be the same number of qualified players in each group (or the groups of the 2nd group won't have same number of players) ......
there's a lot of not ansered questions ...


Thibault de Vassal    (2006-07-02 19:26:07)
qualification for 2nd round

Bonjour David !

Maybe it wasn't clear enough yet. The winner and only the winner of each tournament will be qualified for the next stage. As there can't be several, only 1 player per group will be qualified.

"Round-robin tournaments are groups of 7, 9, 11 or 13 players. The winner of each group is qualified for the next stage. In case of equality, the player with the strongest tournament entry rating (TER) is qualified for the next stage."

Consequently, there will be at least 17 players from the groups ("at least" : if new groups are created) + players rated >2300 from the high rated groups (but winners).

I expect about 40 to 50 players in stage 2 round-robin tournaments. If the numbers don't fit, there will be an invitation to players 2300+ until it solve the problem.









 

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