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William Taylor (2009-04-12)
Not sure if this has been suggested before, but how about a big tournament on FICGS with teams from different countries, like the Olympiad? The number of boards per team would have to be thought about carefully to get the right balance between number of teams able to participate and number of players from each country able to participate. The Austrian team would probably be favourites (headed by Aigner, Rada, Kund), but there are other potentially strong teams too.
Robert Mueller (2009-04-12 16:30:07)
I like it.
Vadim Khachaturov (2009-04-12 18:31:48)
Nice idea! I hope, there will be not only pure national teams, otherwise some players will be unable to participate.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-04-12 18:49:01)
Olympiads in a previous discussion
Hi William, this has been discussed already but it's always a good idea to try to bring new arguments. In my opinion FICGS still has to grow before to envisage it anyway, but first of all you may read the previous discussion and particularly Marc Lacrosse's point :
William Taylor (2009-04-12 20:04:06)
I still like the idea
I still like the idea of country teams and an Olympiad-like format. I've read Marc's post and can't imagine nationalism would be a problem on a friendly site like FICGS. However, it would be a shame for countries which only have one or two players at FICGS not to be able to play. How about a team championship along the lines of other chess team championships such as the Russian one which has just finished? i.e. teams are made up of invited players from all over the world. Anyone could be a team captain and enter a team if they could get one together. There could be an entry fee and captains might even then pay a fee to top FICGS players to be on their team in an effort to win the FICGS team trophy and prize money. ;) I'm not saying an entry fee would be a good idea - just mentioning it as a possibility. Anyway, I think a team championship of some kind, Olympiad-format or not, or both, would be interesting, exciting, and good for building the sense of community on FICGS.
Don Groves (2009-04-12 20:45:19)
Count me in!
I would appreciate the chance to collaborate with my countrymen (and women) in such an event.
Nick Burrows (2009-04-12 21:16:56)
I think it's a good idea also
I am alligned with Marc's anti-nationalistic thinking in a political sense, but here it is simply a 'construct' to initiate some camaraderie and interest.
after all we still all enjoy the olympiad, and playing for club teams can be fun, because chess is such an individualistic pursuit that any opportunity to play in a team, is really just an opportunity to socialise with people that you have a shared interest with.
Pitting players from different countries against each other, has no ultimate meaning - but at least it's an idea that will initiate interest and is therefore positive.
For the people without enough countrymen for a team, why not a UnitedNations team? so all can be included.
Denis Ivanchenkov (2009-04-12 22:11:51)
Maybe instead of national teams tournament it is better to organize just TEAMS tournament?
Nick Burrows (2009-04-12 22:30:28)
The team tournaments on Playchess don't work well at all. It all feels much more random to me playing for Star Trek United etc.
I personally prefer a Ficgs Olympiad as William called it..
William Taylor (2009-04-12 23:33:05)
Teams vs Olympiad
Nick: I haven't played teams tournaments on Playchess but I'd guess they're similar to those on ICC. I agree that they feel rather pointless, but I think that's just because they're over quickly and you won't play in the same team with the same people again. Getting a (perhaps starting annualy) team tournament or league going on FICGS would be quite different I think, with longer time controls, hopefully well-established teams and perhaps prize money. Maybe there's room for a team tournament and an Olympiad - if not either would be nice.
Scott Nichols (2009-04-17 12:47:18)
Team chess league?
What about instead of teams from a certain country, we could form teams from the many friends we have found here. It could be in the form of a league. An open section, a section where the "average" of the 4 players is under 2200, 1800 etc. We could form the teams on our own and enter the waiting list as a team with some fun names. What do you think?
Don Groves (2009-04-19 08:25:32)
I like it!
A great idea, Scott!
Normajean Yates (2009-04-19 23:36:02)
imagine there's no country...
Thibault de Vassal (2009-04-20 03:02:33)
We might try this, even with a few teams, just for fun after all... So maybe teams could be built in the forum !? To be continued.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-04-20 07:09:55)
Wow, I like it, I would like to throw my towel in for consideration :) Wayne
William Taylor (2009-04-20 13:53:38)
How many players per team then?
Denis Ivanchenkov (2009-04-20 23:28:41)
Thibault de Vassal (2009-04-21 10:07:07)
Players per team
(fixed size) because one player per table may be the best choice (at lest the simplest).
Rodolfo d Ettorre (2009-04-21 14:24:51)
Fixed size ...
Maybe there is some confusion, we are talking of the size of the teams, not the size of the players.
William Taylor (2009-04-21 17:22:11)
Well, obviously every team needs to have the same number of boards. But there could be reserves/alternates in a team, if that's what you mean, Denis.
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2009-04-21 17:54:24)
Team chess league
I propose to start with 4 players per team.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-04-21 18:47:25)
Number of players decided upon needs careful consideration. 4 players per team would mean many countries would be left off because not four players signing up/available. I like the idea of as many countries as possible with teams. Of course on the other side of the coin only two players per country would mean many players not getting a chance to play and represent their country. Delicate balance in my view. Having said this, I prefer in favor of many countries therefore 2 players per country. What ya think ? Wayne
Daniel Parmet (2009-04-21 19:26:04)
team league 1st then olympiad later
the olympiad sounds like a great idea except I think Thibault is right there still needs to be more players sign up for countries and teams of 4. Maybe just a team league for now for u2200 and u1800 would be coool.
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2009-04-21 20:25:51)
Team chess league
I don't like the idea of national teams even if "my" team exists only of players of one single country. If four players decide to play in a team, then this team should also be able to take part in this team competition.
William Taylor (2009-04-21 20:54:07)
Let's get a team league going and then an olympiad can come later if people want it. I don't like the idea of 2-player teams at all, so perhaps an olympiad should wait until we've got more players. 4 players sounds fine for the team league (5 or 6 would be fine too - I wouldn't go lower than 4).
Scott Nichols (2009-04-21 22:51:04)
It should be 4 players to a team. The under 2200 section the ratings should AVERAGE under 2200, e.g. a 2511, 2278, 1804, 2205=AVG. 2199.50. Same for other sections. Teams should form on their own and enter a waiting list. A league would be the best if we can get that much organized.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-04-22 00:41:19)
I do not care for the idea of forming teams regardless of rating nationality . We already have this in a sense, It is called "the rating lists". The original proposal was a unique novelty idea, that I liked. I seem to be in minority on 2 person nationalistic teams. So How about a compromise of 4 person nationalistic teams. I Would my self like to play in it representing USA. How many players per teams is part "B" of the idea. Part "A" is making the Olympiad nationalistic. Speaking for my self if we drop this attribute to the idea then I lose interest. My ideas on it Wayne
Nick Burrows (2009-04-22 02:24:11)
I am with Wayne in that an 'Olympiad' holds much more interest for me than randomly formed teams.
Most countries will be able to collect 4 players, and it's just the same if a country has 1 player 5 players or 9 players in that 1 is left out
There can also be a UN team for the 'stragglers'.
Each country can have A,B,C,D teams as in the real olympiad.
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2009-04-22 22:01:52)
Team chess league
Maybe I'm the only one, but if the same nationality is compelling for all players of a team, I am not further interested in this competition.
Normajean Yates (2009-04-23 00:12:57)
Lehnhoff, you are not the only one..
see my prev post in this thread: called imagine... and the post is: 'imagine there's no country...' [the john lennon song]
I wasn't joking (I don't joke about lennon's *post-beatles* songs); in fact my position is stronger: if this is going to be *primarily* a nationality-based thing (even if mixed-nationality teams were allowed) then I am not interested in this.
Which comes down to, I suppose, that: I am not interested in this. (without 'if's and 'but's. A USA-an would put it thus: I am not interested in this, period.)
William Taylor (2009-04-23 00:27:47)
I really don't understand either of the extreme positions on this.
To those who say they are opposed to an olympiad (i.e. national teams) - why is that? Would you refuse to take part in the real chess olympiad if you were asked? Are you against all forms of competition between countries?
To those who say they are not interested in a mixed-team competition of some kind - fair enough, but I think there are plenty of people who are. To Wayne - I fail to see how this idea is comparable to a rating list.
Personally I think both ideas would be fun and interesting, and I would certainly compete in either. Whether there is enough interest to run both at the moment I'm not sure.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-04-23 00:52:43)
Okey Dokey fair enough. As I said I liked the original proposal, I thought it was a unique idea and an "Olympiad" similiar to Olympics Chess, country against country. I was always very active in sports in my youth. Maybe that is why I perked up when I read Mr Taylor's post. I am usually involved in a lot of tournament chess and outside activities and would make an entry for an "Olympiad event" despite my heavy work loads. Wayne
Nick Burrows (2009-04-23 01:03:09)
The Lennon Olympiad
Well i don't believe that a competitive game that symbolically warfare is very much in the spirit of John Lennon in the first place.
I feel for a team competition to work there needs to be a strong theme, playing with a random collection of players to me feels like a 'meaningless' competition.
Playing by nationality is a well established theme that is used in every single competitive sport, because it creates interest - that is all. The team members immediately have something in common, and can play as if mimmicking the real thing. Just as kids playing soccer pretend to be in the world cup...
@William - To begin with there will only be enough interest for one competition, hence the extreme views. It's just a healthy dialectic weighing up the various merits. I always seem to be in the minority ;-(
Scott Nichols (2009-04-23 22:26:53)
If everyone played...
As far as I can tell if everyone played in a FICGS olympiad, AUT (is this Australia, Austria??) would by far be the strongest team with four! players in the top 20 active players.
Normajean Yates (2009-04-24 00:56:04)
re William Taylor's question..
William Taylor asked (whether the question was rhetorical or literal is not germane to this post of mine): 'Would you refuse to take part in the real chess olympiad if you were asked?'
Speaking for myself: Yes, I would refuse. (But I would not hold it against people who didn't, of couse.)
Nationality based competition tends to *divide*. Witness the hatred triggered by England-Argentina football games. Club-based competion is less divisive because players switch clubs much more often than they switch nationality.
The problem is that it 'constructs' 'The Other'. Then one *defines* oneself in opposition to The Other. (Analogous to how the Occident defined itself by constructing 'The Orient': as described in detail for the Levantine ('near'- near what?) East' by late Edward Said in his famous book 'Orientalism' - a theme followed up in his almost equally famous book 'Culture and Imperialism'.)
Thank you for reading this.
Nick Burrows (2009-04-24 01:49:31)
I disagree that international competition divides. Within the countries it unites.
The example of England v Argentina is different because of their recent political history, and because football in particular has a culture of 'yob' support. In England it was created from club football rivalry
Does the olympics divide? Or the Davis cup? Olympiad?
I believe they create something where otherwise there is nothing.
Every action is a positive action, even if it has a negative result. By definition, playing for a team implies playing against. Your win is their loss, but you shake hands and say well done - remembering that it's 'just a game'! In the process, everyones level is raised, and something worthwhile is created. Just don't take it too seriously or symbolically!
Normajean Yates (2009-04-24 03:42:02)
something to be said for both sides...
Nick, there is something to be said for both sides, I think. [In fact for points along the entire spectrum, since William Taylor called my views extreme - not without some justification :) - so I suppose there could be moderate no-country views, moderate pro-country views, centrist views, 'no opinion' views' ... :)
All I am doing is presenting my P.O.V. - I don't insist that I am right - in fact I doubt that the views I expressed are absolutely correct... I would like to see diverse shades of opinion on this, and I presented mine, and I am glad you(and others) presented theirs.
My personal 'thank you' for posting..
P.S.: I watch all the important world cup (football - that is soccer) on the telly :)
I am not *that* consistent - nobody is, I suppose...
Normajean Yates (2009-04-24 03:49:01)
and I *did * read the posts carefully!
And I *did* read Nick's and everyone's posts carefully - not like taking a pro-or-anti stand on The Satanic Verses (or Orientalism, or The Selfish Gene [the last when it first came out was criticised as a Thatcherite book!]) without even reading it!
(Some of my favourite parts of 'the satanic verses' are: the 'My Mutual Freind" scene; and the scene where Gibreel confronts Saladin with the pistol hidden in the lamp - re the last, I hope I have worded it so it is not a spoiler)
Normajean Yates (2009-04-24 05:24:14)
re lennon/yko ono and chess...
Oh dear, quoting lennon's 'imagine' made me some sort a sitting duck but nobody's noticed it yet so I'll preempt that line of attack by pointing it out myself :)
I had forgotten, in the 'no more war' (that was the Vietnam war) sit-ins /bed-ins /exhibitions/ 'happenings' by Ono and Lennon, Yoko Ono had exhibited this sequence of chess sets where the two sides were indistinguishable --- or, more clearly, there was only one side - there was no 'Other'. [and only Yoko Ono 'playing']..
So, if I were to be consistent, I shouldn't be playing chess or any competitive game - against living beings at any rate - here or anywhere -:(
But, saved by something Thibault used to have on this site [I suppose it is still one of those quotes whose turn to be the 'featured quote' comes] - essentially, one is competing against oneself...
but woe! :(
If so, then once I have won a game [ie see the win clearly] why do I insist on actually completing the game, if I am 'only' competing against oneself?
I think I managed to score something which has the feel of an own goal ^^:-|
Thibault de Vassal (2009-04-25 03:01:58)
(talking about quotes)
... are your posts copyrighted, Normajean ? or can I use some parts in the FICGS quotes file ? ;)
Normajean Yates (2009-04-25 06:02:38)
I waive copyright for everyone ;)
Thib, I hereby waive copyright to everything I post here, whether in forums, chat, wikichess, problems, or any other place. I declare that waiver has retroactive effect; and that it places all the above in the public domain.
Now everyone can quote my babblings to demonstrate what silly things I post.. ;)
William Taylor (2009-04-25 21:01:49)
...and this will be the 40th. There's obviously lots of interest but we don't seem to be nearing a consensus. Perhaps it's time to make a decision, Thibault?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-04-25 21:32:16)
Teams, not olympiads this time
In my opinion, thinking about kind of olympiads is too early yet. We may try to build some friendly teams (4 players per team) with funny names - could be a contest also :) -, then we can start a tournament. But no doubt that we'll discuss olympiads again... just later.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-04-25 23:52:18)
Teams, not Olympiads
Okey Dokey, do not understand your reasoning Thibault but it is okey dokey with me, but NOT the Parrot who does not approve. Wayne
Vadim Khachaturov (2009-04-27 22:15:23)
Thibault, I think You should open a waiting list with a some deadline point. After that time the teams of four can be created according to the average rating. IMO the teams average ratings should be as close as possible to each other.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-04-29 14:12:20)
Let's do it. (see new thread) :)
Will Denayer (2009-05-02 03:11:11)
Nice idea indeed, but I am the only person from Ireland here and I am not even Irish! Perhaps there is some other national team which would like to adopt me? :-)
William Taylor (2009-05-02 12:27:29)
Will - if you look at the other thread (called '1st team tournament !') you'll see that we're running a team tournament rather than an Olympiad, so teams can be international. An Olympiad may be discussed again in the future but I don't think Thibault has immediate plans for one.
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