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Game result (chess) S. Ligon, 2321 M. LaDuke, 2326 1/2-1/2 See game 152178 |
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Here are 0 results for Berger Christoph in the games.
Here are 0 results for Berger Nevill in the games.
Here are 0 results for Berger Byron in the games.
There are at least 20 results for Berger in the forum.
George Jempty (2025-11-26 13:19:19)
New Tie Break System
I still like my idea of using it based on performance rating FIRST, I don't see how it gives the lowest entrant an advantage if the tournament ends in a tie between all players.
But lets say two players tie, and one of them has a higher performance rating because they beat a stronger player than the other, that ALSO does not give an advantage to the lower rated player that I can see. Rather, that player must have beaten a higher rated player than the other in order to have a higher performance rating. So if the higher rated player beat a higher rated player rated player than the lower rated player did, the higher rated player would advance.
Perhaps Garvin can weigh in a little more specifically about how being lower rated gives an advantage. But, under his idea, my proposed order would be, 1) Number of wins, 2) performance rating, 3) Sonnen-berger, etc.
Garvin Gray (2024-12-07 04:02:25)
New Tie Break System
Currently Ficgs uses TER as its first tie break if two or more players are tied for first in a round robin group.
I have thought for a long time this is rather unfair and gives way too much advantage to the player with the highest rating in the group.
The practical effect of this rule can be thus:
7 players in a group:
The difference in ratings between the players can be less than 100 points and seeds 1 and 2 can be as little as 2 or 2 rating points.
But with using TER as the first tie break, the top seed only needs to have score the same as everyone else to advance, which with engines nowadays, can quite often mean that all games in a group are drawn.
What I propose is to change the tie break system to the following:
1) Number of wins
2) Sonneborn–Berger
3) Direct Encounter
4) TER
A second option is to stop using such small groups where possible. This would then at least increase the likelihood of a positive result in the groups as more games are played.
Warren Porter (2010-10-08 20:01:55)
Colour allocation change in WCH round robins
I have had a suite of webpages to produce and support Berger round robin tables for several years now:
http://home.comcast.net/~wporter211/realsite/chess_etc/rrpair.htm
Garvin Gray (2010-10-08 15:29:24)
Colour allocation change in WCH round robins
Now that I have seen the full list of pairings used on this site, I can not see any difference between the berger pairing tables that I have listed and the pairings used here.
The order of games is different, but this is because Berger Pairing Tables are normally used in otb tournaments, whereas on here all games are played at the same time, so no need for separate round game allocations.
Garvin Gray (2010-10-06 14:43:08)
Colour allocation change in WCH round robins
Thib: Is there a table to view for how the pairings are made on here? From looking at the pairings from my current WCH group, I was struggling to find out how the pairings are different from the 7/8 berger pairing table.
I am seed 1 and I have white against 2, black against 3, white against 4 and so on.
Seed 2 has black against seed 1, white against seed 3, black against seed 4 and so forth.
I think this is right, but without the tables provided for this site, I can not confirm this.
I am not sure whether seed 1 should be white or black against seed 2. This is because the TER rules mean that if seed 1 ties with seed 3, then seed 1 progresses regardless of which colour.
Which colour seed 1 is allocated probably means more depending where in the serpentine pairings the group 1.
If it is group 1, then seed 1 will be playing seed 22(overall)(seed 2 in Group 1) and then seed 23(overall)(Seed 3 in Group 1).
But if we are talking about Group 11, then it is a battle for seeds 11 and 12. Seed 3 in Group 11 wil be around seed 33(overall).
I am not fussed either way, but this would depend on alot on what tables are used for pairings on here.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-06 14:20:56)
Colour allocation change in WCH round robins
Just noticed that Berger pairing tables for 8 players really look like the way 7 players tournaments are made at FICGS... Seed 1 plays White against Seeds 2, 4, 6, 8 while Seed 2 plays White against Seeds 3, 5, 7, 8 and Seed 3 plays White against Seeds 1, 4, 6, 8. Not really different and not a solution to solve the disadvantage of Seed 2.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-06 08:39:16)
Colour allocation change in WCH round robins
Hi again Garvin, I must say I didn't even know the Berger pairing tables, very interesting to pair 6,8,10,12... players, but maybe not so interesting for 5,7,9,11... as there is a bye.
Anyway, I may try to code it for these cases!
On the original topic, the discussion should continue on the question: Must we reverse the colors in WCH round-robin groups so that Seed #2 play White against Seed #1, as the tiebreak (TER: Tournament Entry Rating) is an advantage for Seed #1 already.
http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=forum_read&id=9097
http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=forum_read&id=9093
As I explained in the other discussions (you can find some statistics in the first one), the whole idea of the chess championship is to find the best player, and rating is an important element in the process IMO. By the way I'm not sure if such an update would change the results significally.
Reverse or not reverse the colors in WCH groups, we need your opinion on this point!
Garvin Gray (2010-10-06 01:37:29)
Colour allocation change in WCH round robins
Currently in the WCH Stage 1 groups (new players) thread, there has been a side discussion occurring about allocation of colours in round robins on this site.
Since Thib has said that he is open to discussing it in a new thread, this is a new thread.
I have made mention of the berger pairing tables, which is the accepted format in otb round robins for how to pair round robins fairly.
The Berger pairing table for seven and eight player round robin is now provided:
Round
1 1:8 2:7 3:6 4:5
2 8:5 6:4 7:3 1:2
3 2:8 3:1 4:7 5:6
4 8:6 7:5 1:4 2:3
5 3:8 4:2 5:1 6:7
6 8:7 1:6 2:5 3:4
7 4:8 5:3 6:2 7:1
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-01 17:51:59)
On colour allocation
On colour allocations, there was numerous discussions on this topic during the 1st year of the server. Well, I cannot remember exactly all my arguments, but briefly 1) Double round-robin is too much effort for the players while it does not eliminate totally the chancy factor. 2) On Berger, the whole FICGS WCH idea is to give more importance to the non-WCH tournaments, the very best player must be champion IMO, not only the winner of a few tournaments, that's why ratings are so important in the tie breaks (and that's why my first idea was to give White to the top seed in round robin groups)!
Less games for everyone per cycle + More cycles = More chances to find the real champion (and more fun :)) !
Garvin Gray (2010-10-01 13:21:12)
WCH Stage 1 groups (new players)
Colour allocation- There are two answers to this, the most pure solution is to have double round robin groups. If this means six player groups and more groups in total, so be it, but at least it would solve the issue.
Berger Pairing Tables- It seems that the round robin groups are not paired using the Berger Pairing Tables for single round robins, why not?
If they are not, then they should be, solves all these issues of colours. This should be the case for all round robins on this site.
Garvin Gray (2010-03-26 22:54:42)
Freestyle Cup: April 2010
Sonnenborn-Berger is a terrible tie break and I strongly recommend that the tie break either be progressive or buchholz.
SB does not tell you much about the path a player took in the tournament (Progressive), or the strength of the opponents they played (Bucholz).
Why does there need to be a tie-break, when we are talking about first place here?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-26 15:40:02)
Freestyle Cup: April 2010
Maybe I'll change that next time... The current rules are "If several players obtain the best score and the best Sonnenborn-Berger, they will share the prize.", in other words: The winner takes it all.
Nick Burrows (2009-12-01 01:36:41)
Joop van Oosterom/Jeroen Piket?
I just came accross this statement by Tim Krabbe
The Turk was operated by William Schlumberger, Mephisto was operated by Isidore Gunsberg, Ajeeb was operated by Harry Pillsbury and , the Dutch billionaire / new World Correspondence Chess Champion, is operated by Jeroen Piket.
Is this true? Is it really a computer assisted Jeroen Piket??
Benjamin Block (2008-05-24 16:22:36)
New idea
In tournamens if i understand right the player with the best points win but if some have the same the highest ELO win. Why not use the Sonneborn-Bergers (you add oppenents whole points and the half points if it is a draw.) If the Sonneborn-Bergers points is the same you can take the moste wins in the tourney and if they are the same you can use the highest elo win.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-03-30 07:25:30)
Freestyle cup : Rules & start
There was a small conflict in the rules, now corrected : The first game will start at 13:00 server time, not 15:00
Current rules :
FICGS advanced chess "freestyle" cup is a 6 rounds swiss tournament with entry fee and prize, played in a single day. Entry fees are E-Points that you can buy in 'My account'. Read carefully terms and conditions, particularly Entry fees & Prize money sections before to play tournaments with entry fees.
All games are played in 30 minutes + 15 seconds / move. Norms are not possible.
The first round will start at the date and hour (13:00 server time) indicated as "deadline". Next rounds will start at 15:00, 17:00, 19:00, 21:00 and 23:00 server time. Please register carefully as it is not possible to retire from the waiting list. It is strongly recommended to display the chat bar to communicate with the tournament director.
If several players obtain the best score and the best Sonnenborn-Berger, they will share the prize. It is possible to forfeit all next games (that will be unrated for the advanced chess rating list) during the tournament.
FIDE GM & IM, FICGS / ICCF GM, SM & IM are invited to enter the waiting list for free.. Please just send a message to webmaster through My account page to register. You may be asked to send a copy of your passport or ID card. The tournament might be cancelled if less than 7 players registered before the deadline, in this case entry fees will be given back to the players.
An extra fee, usually 30% of the entry fee, will be added to the entry fee 2 days before the start of the tournament.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-17 05:35:42)
To tie or not to tie
Hi Gino !
"I'm in advantage from the start given the tournament rules" : Untrue IMO, according to the current situation (not all games are draw), if the match ends at tie, you'll lose it - at least qualification - in all cases ;)
In 8-games matches, like every WC round-robin tournament, fighting for the score and (&&) for ratings looks quite normal, there's no dishonor to tie, winning or losing the right to move to the next round. Definitely rules have something to do with honor, at least with victory. Is there no honor to win a chess game with White pieces and its small advantage ?
What about ICCF WC tournaments and Sonnenborn-Berger ? .. Somewhat more complex, but ratings decide according to the situation also. What about FIDE World Championship ? .. Did Kramnik win his title / tie his match against Leko without honor ? .. FICGS rules are not more unfair than FIDE WCH ones, I'm playing an 8-games match against Farit Balabaev, his strategy is clearly to draw the 8 games and it may work, there's no dishonor in it, only good strategy IMHO.
But, of course, that's more a question of human feeling than mathematics, so only my point of view :)
Rodolfo d Ettorre (2007-07-06 02:08:09)
Re
Could it be Thibault de Bergerac?
Garvin Gray (2007-07-02 12:31:01)
tie breaks
Just noticed for this swiss tournament that the announced tie break is Berger. It is more normal in swiss events to have either Progressive or Buchholz as the first tie break, with the other being the second. Berger is used as the first tie break in round robin events. Is there a reason for Berger being chosen as the method of tie break (except for being different : ) ?
Garvin Gray (2007-05-02 18:48:43)
sb tie breaks
I notice that for deciding ties for first in the round robin sections of the wch, the sb tie break, followed by number of wins, has only been mentioned once or twice.
I think it really does deserve more consideration. It is my opinion that the current way of deciding who goes through to the next round- higher rating- is patently unfair. While I understand some of the arguments for (higher rating), I still think it is unfair to reward someone for something they did outside of the round robin group play.
In their rr group, they were not good enough to achieve first place on their own, so a player should not advance based on results achieved outside of that rr group.
In my opinion the tie break order should be: 1) Berger tie break 2) Total number of wins in the group 3) Result between the two or more players.
I also noticed that a few people have mentioned that more players are required in each rr group. I certainly agree with this.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-14 16:07:16)
"Blitz" cup...
Thank you Heinz Georg, for the files you sent to me.
Now I understand better the work and ideas of Reimund Lutzenberger in Chessfriend.com, a great experimentation field for sure...
I first concluded some things not to do in FICGS WCH. In example, a player rated 2500 (even provisional rating from fide) shouldn't have to play in the first stage against a low-rated player in a world championship [but that could be possible in a cup tournament cycle]. So I'll add special rules for high rated players (who are not qualified for the WCH knockout tournament) to begin directly in a 2nd stage tournament...
I agree with Dinesh, the aim is not to use the same formulas, even good ones. Anyway I think we can find new interesting (better :)) ones. But as the WCH is already a rapid tournament cycle, the CUP could be an unrated "blitz" (30 days per game with no increment, or even 10 days + 1 hour / move) knockout (2 games / match + playoffs) !! Something quite "brutal" and unfair between correspondence chess & classical rythms. What do you think ?
There are 0 results for Berger in wikichess.
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