rybka
FICGS - Search results for rybka
There are 681 results for rybka in the forum.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-22 18:31:31)
What future for correspondence chess ?
You may have noticed this "grave" question on the home page... :)
---------
Are draws and chess engines killing chess game, are the level and play simply standardized by Deep Fritz and Rybka... Is the extraordinary performance by Christophe Léotard at XIX th. ICCF correspondence chess world championship 'chancy', a statistical happening, or is there a place yet for human play in modern correspondence chess ?
"I really believe that Go is destined to take the place of Chess as the leading intellectual game of the Occident, just as it has reigned supreme in the Orient for some four thousand years." (Edward Lasker, international chess master)
"... {it is} something unearthly... if there are sentient beings on other planets, then they play go." (Emanuel Lasker, chess world champion)
It had been said that Chess 960 would replace Chess too. I don't think so...
Any predictions ?
Benjamin Aldag (2006-09-30 15:57:58)
e4-Line !
The e4-Line is the only line, which gives white the possibility of an clear advantage. All other lines are really bad for white. The point of this opening is, to have with the black color good knights versus a bad bishop-pair of white. Roman Dzindzihasvili is the founder of this Defense and i think, "Beefeater" is not the right name. I call it "Dzindzi-Indian-Defense". There are many interesting lines and some of them, transpose the game to other openings (Pirc, Sicilian-Dragon, Kings-Indian etc.). The move 5...f5 was played to prevent black of 6.e4, but 6.e4! is the best move, white can play. I've played last year in Litomysl in a Simultan versus GM Sergey Movsesian this "Dzindzi-Indian-Defense". Sergey played 6.h4?! and after 15 moves, we draw the game. The Dzindzi-Indian-Defense is an easy to learn opening and i've got good results with it in many tourneys. Last time i've saw this Defense at the Chess-Olympic, played by players around 2400-2500. 6.e4! is the best move, but many many players don't know it and the possibility for black, to get a good result in a game is very high. I can say, i know all variations about this opening and this thematic tournament will be my first tourney here, where i will not use computer-assistence. Its funny to see, that an Engine (Rybka,Fritz etc.) dont understand the ideas behind this defense and without an opening-book, engines dont see that 6.e4! is the only way, to get an advantage.
I luv Dzindzi-Indian-Defense
Benny
Thibault de Vassal (2006-10-02 18:01:18)
Rybka vs. Chessbase engines
Are there correspondence chess players who use Rybka here ? .. is it a better analysis tool than his well-known rivals (Deep Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs...) ?
A thread about chess engines could be interesting : How to use chess engines in correspondence chess, which ones (when & why), their weaknesses.....
For sure many players don't want to tell their opponents their way of 'think' :) .. but it could be interesting to make this kind of comparison...
Ilmars Cirulis (2006-10-02 18:31:15)
I :D
I use Rybka. 1.2. It is my only engine. :D I don't know about other ones. I have too poor eksperience with correspodence chess. But sometimes the engine tells weak moves - especially in very sharp and difficult variations. For example, Traxler or Latvian gambit poisoned pawn. I must think, too. :D
James Stripes (2006-10-03 16:13:13)
curious
I have approximately 64 chess engines, including the beta version of Rybka 1 (the free version). In engine tournaments on my box, it has prevailed against my strongest commercial engines.
However, the centaur play that is the norm here presents Rybka with an entirely different sort of playing environment than those in which it has demonstrated its superiority. As I am new to this type of play, I don't yet know how Rybka measures up to the likes of Junior, Shredder, and Hiarcs.
Marc Lacrosse (2006-10-04 18:55:32)
Rybka and others
I use rybka 1.1 and quite a few other ones :-)
I am pretty sure that rybka is stronger than all other engines but this does not in any way say that rybka's play is perfect.
A problem with the practical use of rybka is the fact that it has something like a different scaling of his assessments than most others.
+0.10 is a large advantage for rybka! and often he gives almost the same score to several candidate moves whereas other engines more clearly differentiate the value of different potential continuations.
Rybka often misses evidently promising tactical continuations if you do not give him a much longer thinking time than requested by some competitors
So I think Rybka is a powerful tool but not the only one to have for computer help
Marc
Elmer Valderrama (2006-10-04 22:36:44)
Toga
Since everyone is being honest in this thread here is my
confession..
Usually I use latest Toga, I bought Rybka 1.2 series, but I've
found it is not better than Toga, especially if run in
a slow computer (I still use a AMD +1600, with Windows 98:
I know I should buy a better computer but this one is already a recent
"upgrade" from a Pentium 700Mhz running Fritz 8 ;) and I dont
want to fall in the endless (and costly) chain of keeping -up-to-date
just to get a few more ELO points ;)
Sometimes I test the positions with other engines (Fritz 8,
Schredder 8, free Fruit) just to prove how right was Toga in the initial
evaluation. In those rare but happy occasions when I make my own input
is simply to give an idea of where should the engine "think".
When things go well, after some point, it is just a matter of
setting the engines on my opponents, they would finish the job.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-01 11:19:43)
Deep Fritz, Rybka & future
The Chess Challenge 2006 in Bonn between classical world champion Vladimir Kramnik and chess engine Deep Fritz 10 confirms (who ignored ?) the best chess programs can rivalize with the world champion in a match, but it first shows us these calculating monsters still have weaknesses.
Question is : What are the real improvements in Fritz 10 compared to Fritz 9 (engine speaking only) ?
Here is what I think about chess engines nowadays (Fritz 10, Shredder, 10, Junior 10, Hiarcs 10 and particularly Rybka 2.2) :
The way of think to play correspondence chess is (or should be) mostly human one combined with a chess engine algorithm. We follow the tree of moves like a program with our selective algorithm (much better than chess engines), applying our judgement of the position when necessary only. The point is we evaluate moves and we almost never evaluate a position twice.
Chess engines are very good analysis tools but are surprisingly not designed to be very good chess players. I think a major improvement in chess engines should be recognition of 'sufficient moves' : ie. it is no worth to always find the best move at a particular point of the tree, this reflection time could be used later... It depends on the evaluation of the position, on the clocks... Iterative model is quite basic (in a game at least !).
Another point is recognition of traps. This is the start of psychology in chess engines, and basics of the art of war. It first depends on who your opponent is, and on the clocks too. Finally, at the end of the tree, chess engines evaluate positions, but how many evaluate moves ? .. Speculative moves were a step, but it first shew chess engines were not able yet to see what move is worth to be analysed really deeper, consequently creating a 'human' weakness, particularly against some other chess engines.
I don't know how Rybka works, but as far as I read about this one that calculates much less positions (about 10 times) than Fritz, I wouldn't be surprised that Vasik Rajlich had implemented a better approach of human way of think, which is undoubtly the future of chess engines.
A good 'centaur' in ie. Playchess rapid tournaments is first a good choice between Chessbase engines according to the position and clocks. Fritz qualities probably apply best in standard games, where clocks are really designed for him. Among Chessbase engines, Hiarcs is probably the best Blitz player and could be the best correspondence chess player (even if it isn't the best CC tool for humans). Rybka is probably a kind of centaur itself (sorry, herself ;)), knowing when to use (in the tree !) brute force and more selective approachs - not to be compared to Hydra or Deep Blue which, on contrary, use most brute force.
My conclusion is chess engines have much to learn from humans yet, we'll see a Rybka 5 and Fritz 13, with much better results against other chess engines, but their results shouldn't increase a lot against the best humans in future. Finally, it will never be a good correspondence chess player :)
My two cents.
If I find time, I'll continue to implement my own chess engine..... but it's a lot of work :/
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-01 11:23:50)
buy it!
HAHAHAHAHAHA ! :))
Actually question is : What are the real improvements compared to Fritz 9 (engine speaking only) ? .. I just tried to start an answer in another thread :
http://www.ficgs.com/forum_read_1713-Deep-Fritz-Rybka-future.html
Wayne Lowrance (2006-12-05 03:26:24)
Chess Engines CC Ratings
Waiting for a match against Rybka ? :) hummmm
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-09 19:17:43)
GNUchess
Lionel, are you sure about GNUchess ? .. seems quite weak to me, did you have a try with Fruit, Rybka 1.0 or Toga ?
About Scrabble, what do you think of my idea (several posts above) to eliminate chance completely ? I'm thinking about a new board (and name for the game) with these rules - letters 'out of bag' and ordered already - may look like a chess-scrabble ?!
Wolfgang Utesch (2006-12-13 16:37:20)
Rybka clearly the best ?
There are many investigations of chess engines in web their resultats are showing the same like yours.
But the open questions is whether playing against other chess engines is the same like assisting human to analyze a chess position?
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-14 00:09:56)
Rybka clearly the best engine vs. engine
I fully agree with both of you... We must be careful, even if all these results are really impressive, most chess engines have been designed to play against humans and to be useful analysis tools. As I said in another thread, there are still many things to improve to make it the best engine vs. engine fighter.
Nowadays, the best chess engines try to 'think' like humans and actually have inherited human weaknesses from them, so IMO a Hydra or Deep Blue would crush ie. Shredder or Junior which try to make it harder for human brain while Fritz is clearly better balanced.
Maybe this new engines generation started with Fruit which plays very solid. So Rybka, which is clearly designed to beat his rivals but I'm not convinced at all it is a better tool to play correspondence chess.
Daniel De Noose (2006-12-13 14:29:26)
Rybka clearly the best ?
This week I have tested Rybka againt 3 others engines.
The parameters :
----------------
Intel Centrino 725 (1,67 Ghz), 64 Mb Hash Tables, games in 10 minutes (+ 2 seconds per move) for each "player", Shredder 9 interface, 20 games' matches, HS-Masterbook Opening book .
The Engines :
-------------
Rybka 2.2 W32, Gambit Fruit 1.0 Beta 4bx, Toga 1.2.1a and Shredder 9.
The Results :
-------------
1) Rybka - Shredder 9 :
15,5 / 4,5 (+13,-2,=5)
2) Rybka - Toga 1.2.1a :
12 / 8 (+8,-4,=8)
3) Rybka - Gambit Fruit :
13,5 / 6,5 (+10,-3,=7)
The comments :
--------------
Rybka seems to be clearly the best for the moment ... I would like to test Rybka against other engines like Fritz 10, Shredder 10, ... but I don't have these engines. Perhaps later... ;-)
Do you have comments about this ?
James Stripes (2006-12-16 16:21:38)
Rybka vs Kramnik
When Rybka defeats the top human in a match, it will earn something far more important than demonstrating its prowess over silicone opponents.
Wayne Lowrance (2006-12-18 19:34:15)
Having said that
My personal Feeling is that Rybka has not proved itself in coorespondance chess and especially against top Gm's. It makes a lot of silly computer moves as do all engines That a Gm will exploit.
So I guess I agree, more or less with Thibault that chess fritz10 probobly is #1.
I have purchased all of the fritz engines except for fritz 9 and the new fritz10, which explains why I jumped on the chance to get fritz 9 for free here this site. Forget about that free stuff, but that is another subject that I wish not go into.
P.S. Maybe Santa will deliver F10 to me :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-18 22:17:31)
Rybka vs. Human
I agree with James, Rybka has to prove he can defeat the best players. It may be not so easy... (I don't know if it was what you meant, Wayne !?)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-01-17 23:59:52)
Chess engines ratings
Some useful links about ratings and statistics for all well known chess engines : Rybka (2.2, 2.1 ..), Deep Fritz 10, Deep Shredder 10, Deep Junior 10, Hiarcs 11, Zap!Chess paderborn, Loop 10.32, Toga II, Fruit 2.2, Glaurung 1.2, Spike 1.2, Smarthink, Naum 2.0, Ktulu 8.0, CM9000, CM10th, Fritz 9, Chess Tiger 15, Chess Tiger 2007, Ruffian 2.1, List 11 and many others...
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/rating_list_all.html
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_120_ratinglist/ratinglist/rangliste.html
http://web.telia.com/~u85924109/ssdf/list.htm
Wayne Lowrance (2007-01-18 01:19:11)
Chess engines rating
Very nice information. A great big word of caution. We play coorespondence games here. Those engine-engine tournaments do not indicate directly which program is best suited for correspondence deep analysis, I do not have enough experience with the engines except earlier versions of Fritz, shredder, Hiarc, Junior and of course Dr Robert Hyatts Various versions of Crafty and Rybka.
Rybka is top rated eng-eng program for fast time controls. But not sure that it is best for deep analysis. My guess is that Latest Fritz is at least as well suited for deep analysis and perhaps better.
Then their is Shredder another top eng-eng program that is very very good at deep analysis.
From what I read and for what it is worth those are the best engines. But if you want the strongest program for 40/120 time control down to bullet chess,then the clear winner is Rybka by Vas.
Hope this is of interest.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2007-01-28 19:34:00)
Rybka 2.2 vs. Fritz 10
Harry Schnapp organized a 6 games match between Rybka 2.2 and Fritz 10 on DUAL XEON 5160 (4x3000Mhz), the same computer Fritz 10 played and won against Vladimir Kramnik.
Rybka : 5,5 - Fritz : 0,5
http://perso.orange.fr/lefouduroi/tournois/tournois66.htm
All details and article in German / French.
Now look at the games...
What do you think ?
Thibault de Vassal (2007-01-31 00:09:34)
Rybka secret
An interesting (even if totally wrong) article about Rybka's strength and particularly his results against Deep Fritz on Rybka forum.net .. A computer gate, is Rybka cheating ? :)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=90
Rybka forum - http://www.rybkaforum.net
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-07 00:52:58)
Rybka 2.3
An interesting thread about Rybka 2.3 (should be available on february 12) and his new features, described by Vasik Rajlich. In a few words : stronger, new chess knowledge, better search algorithm, better positional play, bug fixes and an interesting feature called "randomizer" :
Quote : "You can put Rybka into a mode where she will play against herself over and over from the same position without repeating variations - she will systematically explore the space of possibilities in the variation, branching from the previous games at later and later points. It's an effective way to get a Monte-Carlo-based evaluation of a position."
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=180
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-09 12:33:11)
Illya Nyzhnyk
For sure... It's said the teddy bear is called "Deep Rybka on Dual Xeon" or something :)
Teddy bears should be forbidden during chess tournaments, particularly world championships !
This is a message of the committee against teddy bears.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-10 03:08:52)
Rybka, Fritz and future...
Computerchess is definitely an exciting challenge... The community is fast-growing, new versions of chess engines appear every day, many dream to be the next Vasik Rajlich and to produce an engine that would beat the well-known Chessbase engines and the famous Rybka.
These days, I had a look at Fruit 2.1, TogaII and Crafty source code that are available to download, and started to implement new search & evaluation functions. It's quite easy to understand why chess programming is so addictive, so much done and so much to do... finally I did not enter this mad race without an ending, probably for the same reasons Anthony Cozzie (the author of Zap! Chess Zanzibar) and many others retired.
However here are my feelings about future of chess engines, and the fight that just started between most probably Chessbase engines (Fritz, Shredder, Junior and Hiarcs) and a new era of chess engines that started with Rybka...
First, it's quite obvious to me that Rybka (now Rybka 2.3) is only another one of a long series of chess engines always stronger than each others ! .. I expect the next ones to reach 50, 100 then 200 points more (and maybe more) on the next chess engines elo rating lists, a scale that definitely can't be compared to human elo rating list ! .. Several reasons to this : (1) Chess engines are human killers at standard time controls, but chess engines are far to play perfect chess yet. (2) The way ratings are calculated.
Rybka taught us several things IMO :
- Algorithms and evaluation functions are no more enough. Now chess engines have to play chess, not only search a tree of chess positions... That's probably what Rybka brought to computerchess. Since Fruit 2.1 & Toga II source code is available, and computerchess community is constantly discussing improvements in algorithms, evaluations of positions and new ideas, to implement a chess engine becomes easier so I have no doubt that new very strong chess engines like Rybka will come.
- To become famous, a chess engine must 'also' beat his rivals. I first thought that Rybka was designed to be an engines killer only (at least before to be an analysis tool) with some tricks exploiting most engines weaknesses. No, Rybka is also a great UCI engine, simply stronger and with many options & features. Like Vasik Rajlich, who is engineer and international chess master, you'll have not only to think like an engineer to create such an engine. However I still don't think it is the best analysis tool for correspondence chess, it doesn't play really better chess and in all cases it is not enough. More, Rybka 3, 4, 5 shouldn't influence correspondence chess (maybe even human vs. machine) much... Computerchess influences computerchess first.
It's written sometimes that the strongest chess engines could reach a IM, even GM level at correspondence chess. I definitely disagree with that, at least for the moment (it will take a long time yet), but as chess engines results tend to approach correspondence chess ones (means more and more draws), I do think chess engines have much to learn from correspondence chess players way of thinking, meaning : A more psychological approach, bonus for traps detection. Evaluate moves, not only positions. A more complex search, not 'only' iterative (brute force is definitely useless). No more anti-human style, speculative moves (=weakness, ie. Deep Junior) for speculative results against strongest chess engines, draws are prefered. To avoid positions not understood by the engine. Longer games, closed games (if supported)... Opening books should look like correspondence chess GMs ones (of course according to the engine's style of play) and no more been made of FIDE GM games. A better time management... Future of computerGo may teach to computerchess about some evaluations.
A chess engine must play good moves AND try to win (which is not always the same). It seems Fruit & Rybka play solid and are waiting to exploit their opponent's weaknesses thanks to a better "chess" algorithm/knowledge. As far as I have seen, Shredder & Fritz still have the best 'eye', they see far but fuzzy. Quite the same about Fruit & Toga developped by a great engineer, Fabien Letouzey : Less chess knowledge but an improved algorithm. As for Rybka, a great chess knowledge and probably a smarter algorithm (not better, smarter !) were probably enough already. The future best chess engines will be made by good chess players...
An interesting point is it could be not so easy, maybe even nonsense, to create the best analysis tool that would also obtain the best results against other chess engines. My first prediction is Rybka won't be the top rated chess engine ever, hundreds of new ideas will appear in all parts of chess programming, slowly breaking Rybka secrets, then speed will be a factor again. Deep Fritz, Junior, Fruit or Hydra are most probably the core of the next generations of chess engines... but there's a lot of work yet :)
My two cents.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-12 09:47:18)
Rybka 2.3
The new version of the engine seems to be late, and it seems not only authors of chess engines are addicted to computerchess :)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=204#fp
Wayne Lowrance (2007-02-15 22:50:39)
Rybka, Fritz and future
I would like to comment. Your post is most interesting. I sort of disagree with you a little bit. But first:
I do agree with you that Rybka may not be the best CC engine. I sort of like F10 for that. Rybka end game is lacking behind several other engines, including Fritz.
Perhaps the best cc engine is a dark horse. named Zap, latest version. Rybka kills Zap according to posting in short games (Blitz) but recent testing evidence by reliable testers indicate that it is one heck of a engine in standard time controls.
In my opinion there are several engines that have proven that Humans have lost a grip in chess play.
Wayne Lowrance (2007-02-15 23:05:38)
more chess engine talk.
Thibault, you miss the boat on Hydra futre expectations in my opinion. Its advantage over pc engines was dedicated hardware (no necessarily speed) and ease of making program modifications.
However you perhaps neglect to consider the tremendous improvement in PC performance multiple cores, processors and et all. My thought is that the pc programs already are superior to Hydra. Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that Rybka has finished ahead of it in tournament play.
As far as other programs, you did not mention Zap. You best keep an eye on this one. It is very very strong and improving. Right now it is the only engine that has a chance of catching Rybka in eng-eng matches. I think it will be number two on the computer rankings. I will try to look further into Zap for a top CC engine. we see.
again, my thoughts
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-16 02:11:07)
Rybka 2.3
More info about Rybka 2.3
www.rybkachess.com/index.php?auswahl=Rybka+2.3+readme
The new engine should be a bit stronger than the previous version, Vasik Rajlich ran a blitz match (1' + 1") between Rybka 2.3 and Rybka 2.2n2 and got a result of: +245 =607 -193 (52.5%, +17 Elo).
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-20 17:44:50)
Rybka 2.2 stronger than Rybka 2.3
Rybka 2.3 weaker than Rybka 2.2 ??
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=340#fp
CEGT computer chess rating lists :
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_4_Ratinglist/40_4_AllVersion/rangliste.html
Waiting for HIARCS 12 :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-22 17:34:01)
Zap! Chess Zanzibar
Nice results for Zap!Chess Zanzibar chess engine, that now appears 2nd (Rybka 1st, of course) on all CEGT (Chess Engines Grand Tournament) rating lists.
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn
Definitely, that's a pity Anthony Cozzie can't give more time to computer chess.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-03 17:12:57)
Rybka 2.3.1
Rybka 2.3.1 beta is available, Rybka 2.3.2 is announced, quite hard to follow Vasik Rajlich's work day after day :) .. Rybka forum is very active and it seems Rybka 2.3.1 is the strongest Rybka and the strongest chess engine today !
I hope Fritz, Junior, Shredder and Hiarcs authors are working hard...
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=472#fp
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-05 10:19:11)
Playchess Freestyle Tournament
Thanks for info, Samy...
What a crosstable, no less than 17 players finishing with 5,5 / 8
Petr, I understand your frustration, anyway that's why I play correspondence chess only over the internet. Losing a game thanks to a connection lost or strange rules is not interesting much :/
Several remarks while looking at the final crosstable :
The winner uses Rybka 2.3 mp, the others too :) .. Rybka's author (Rajlich) scores 5 out of 8 (pos. 18)
With Rybka getting stronger and stronger at fast time controls, Advanced Chess will probably become Computer Chess and finally Rybka Chess very soon. 1 hour + 15 sec is no more interesting.
I recognize some famous 'names' used on the defunct KasparovChess.com, King Crusher (5 / 8), Deep Thunder (3,5 / 8)... Correspondence Chess GM Mikhail Umansky scores 2,5 / 8... and last but not least, french forums superstar Olivier Evan scores 2,5 / 7 :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-09 16:53:11)
GM Ehlvest vs. Rybka
A strange match happened between FIDE GM Jaan Ehlvest (2610) and Rybka, with White playing with 7 pawns in all games...
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=519
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=564
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-09 20:36:44)
GM Ehlvest vs. Rybka
... of course Rybka won the match : 5,5 / 2,5
Hannes Rada (2007-03-10 00:20:44)
How to get an equalized game vs. Rybka
Rybka handicapped by a pawn does not seem to be a sufficient compensation.
Let's furnish the human GM with an extra knight :-)
Elmer Valderrama (2007-03-10 15:27:33)
Playchess Freestyle Tournaments
Interesting and true observation, Thibault.
What about the format 2h/40moves displayed under Money Tournaments in
Waiting Lists?
Maybe this is equally harder (in order to beat Rybka) that at 1h+15sec (!?)
And second question is why do you think Black needs so many moves to have
winning chances in the proposed Silver/Gold Thematic game, or a better
question could be: Do you think White can get a draw after that sequence:
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Ng1 d5 3.Nf3 c5 4.Ng1 Black to move.
-->assuming the idea is that if the game is drawn White would win the
1-game match--.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-10 15:43:17)
Playchess Freestyle Tournaments
Hi Elmer.
1h+15 is worth 1h10/40 moves... 2h/40 moves is the longest time control before correspondence chess (games that don't finish the same day it started) and I think it's long enough so that human can do something else than operate Rybka :)
About Silver/Gold Thematic game, if White/Black obtains much more than 50%, I'll change the opening until to find one that give about 50% chances. What do you think ? .. About this opening, I think chances are about 50%, I would play it with both colors :)
Elmer Valderrama (2007-03-10 16:17:33)
Playchess Freestyle Tournaments
1hour+15sec per player makes 2hours and 20 min for 40 moves overall which is significantly worse than 4hours for 40 moves overall, so I guess yes you are right (there is enough time to beat Rybka)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-10 16:54:39)
Playchess Freestyle Tournaments
.. enough time to beat Rybka, I don't know, but enough time to bring a bit of human brain chess for sure :)
About another Platin (or whatever) category with 1000 EUR at stake, I'll see it later as it could bring some more difficulties regarding laws.
Elmer Valderrama (2007-03-11 10:40:27)
Playchess Freestyle Tournaments
I'm not that concerned about just bringing a bit of human brain into the game,
I'm most concerned about bringing a bit of human brain into the game
*successfully* :) i.e. for a start, real chances to beat operated Rybka at this time
control. Hope you are right, I am just rather being optimist on your
proposed time control.
--The 'money' prizes are now listed as Epoints not Euros, but what's the
equivalence between them?
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-11 21:05:57)
Shredder 10 vs. Rybka 2.3.1
Quite funny, Harry Schnapp 'organized' a match with the same conditions between Shredder 10 UCI and Rybka 2.3.1 (still playing with 1 pawn less) : Shredder 10 won the match 5,5 / 2,5
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-25 18:39:15)
Computer Go
Neural networks will be at most an "extra" or a small part of the solution for a good playing Go program IMO. I don't believe much in it until an artificial brain have the "power" of a human one and we're very far from it. But as in chess (and Rybka's coming), a lot of knowledge probably has to be implemented yet and algorithms to be improved before that. That's why I said it could probably reach a 2 or 3 dan level, which still looks a reasonable level (ok, only an assumption) :) ... Then, it should be much.. much harder.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-04-09 16:16:41)
GM vs. chess engines database
Someone mentioned "Marc Lacrosse´s database" in a Rybka forum's thread, I did not find it with Google, but I found this interesting Man vs. Machine database, 2837 GM vs. engine games on ICC so far, on Marc's website : Chessbazaar (link was on this forum :))
http://users.skynet.be/mlcc/chessbazaar/gmvscompsicc2006.html
Thibault de Vassal (2007-04-23 21:34:41)
Deep Fritz vs. Deep Junior
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3802
FIDE will organize a computer-computer 6-games match during the final days of the candidates match in june in Elista.
The "players" : Reigning computer chess world champion Deep Junior and 'reigning world champion' Deep Fritz. Time control : 75 min + 5 sec / move, the winner will get $60,000, the loser $40,000
This match brings a few questions : No particular comment on the choice of the engines, Rybka will wait for a win in a computer chess world championship... However I can't see a real interest for FIDE and for chess in such a match. I mean 6 games of rapid computer chess.. $100,000 !? Of course it will attract a few new players - to beat computers is an attractive challenge. But at least I hope Chessbase is the main sponsor :) .. does it mean a new Deep FRitz and Deep Junior version in june ? .. I hope that the games analyzed by Rybka 2.3 won't reveal the engines too poor.. :/ .. Finally what 'title' for the winner ?! ;)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-04-23 22:31:50)
Rybka tops SSDF rating list
2007 april 21 - New SSDF computer chess rating list is out !
http://web.telia.com/~u85924109/ssdf/list.htm
Rybka 2.3.1 tops the list with 2962 elo, followed by a surprising Hiarcs 11.1 with 2871 elo. Then, Junior 10.1 and Fruit 2.2.1 followed by Shredder 10. That's a pity Fritz 10 and probably Zap! chess Zanzibar are not rated yet.
The king Rybka will probably have serious opponents soon...
Thibault de Vassal (2007-04-29 23:48:55)
Google searches
Statistics are always instructive, often funny :)
Recently, a few new "magic" keywords appeared to attract Googlers on FICGS website... After 'Yahoo mail problems' and a bunch of other funny ones, it seems a new chess star is born on Google :) .. "Marc Lacrosse" or "Marc Lacrosse Anand ICC" appear many times a day... Another funny one "Rybka 2.3.1 free download" or "Rybka download free" : Dear friends, Rybka is not free for download here, I'm sorry ;)
Garvin Gray (2007-05-03 19:41:36)
opponents
Agree that Rybka will have serious opponents soon. Most likely in the form of Rybka 3 :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-05-03 21:24:27)
opponents
To implement chess knowledge is a question of time, I'm not sure it was a priority in the last Fritz/Junior versions. Rybka will have serious challengers in a few months, one year at most :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-05-07 14:32:34)
science,art and bluff
The environment is different but there's a lot of bluff in correspondence chess IMO, even if the number of draws is higher at 2400+ level. It is no more based on obvious mistakes but on apparent "weak" moves that actually can win ie. a long endgame, particularly moves that are completely missed by the best chess engines such as Rybka. This kind of moves happens often yet, fortunately.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-05-22 22:55:46)
Opponents for Rybka
Really ?! .. Which ones are you thinking about ? Maybe Hiarcs..
Albert H. Alberts (2007-05-23 14:49:38)
shesnikov
To Wolfgang Utech:
ALL openings have more secrets can the engines can detect.Invariant of the program Fritz, Rybka, Junior, whatever.Question is to unveil them.It is more difficult with greater processing speed/deeper depth. In "so-called "free style" chess (allowing use of machines) players go over ELO 3000 no draws, so some of them should be able to beat machines with ease.
Albert H.Alberts,www.howtofoolfritz.com
Albert H. Alberts (2007-05-26 01:33:41)
Deep Fritz vs. Deep Junior
Thibault:
Maybe the reason is that ICGA Ilyumzhinov=FIDE=ICGA=Chessbase=Fritz stage an advertisement campaign with Fritz-10 the New Ruling WC? In that case the 100 000 comes back triple. Who knows. Computer chessmen/women know that Rybka is unbeatable at the moment.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-06 19:12:00)
Rybka: $100,000 challenge to FIDE
The author of Rybka - undoubtly the strongest chess engine (Rybka 2.3.1), Vasik Rajlich challenges FIDE for a $100,000 match between Rybka and the winner of the "Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge 2007" between Deep Junior and Deep Fritz, that just started (first game drawn) :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1126
Also the match offer to grandmasters is more and more interesting :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=794;pg=1
I doubt Chessbase or FIDE would accept to organize & play such a match, even if Fritz 11 or 12 can beat the next Rybka... The war of engines is not on the chessboard nowadays but that's quite interesting to follow anyway :)
Dirk Ghysens (2007-06-07 08:13:30)
Ehlvest
Rybka's GM challenger will be Ehlvest (again); in an earlier match, Ehlvest (Elo 2643) received Pawn odds and lost.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-14 18:14:03)
Rybka 2.3.2
Just after President's cup "Ultimate computer challenge" finished, Vasik Rajlich threw a new Rybka 2.3.2 in the chess engines arena... (partly explains the $100,000 challenge to Ilyumzhinov a few weeks ago)
Once more, Rybka 2.3.2 seems stronger than her predecessors with indcredible results (blitz time control) against Hiarcs 11.1, Zap chess Zanzibar, Shredder and so on... Maybe +35 elo points compared to Rybka 2.3.1 !
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1264#fp
http://www.rybkachess.com
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-14 18:20:51)
Rybka 2.3.2 improvements
An interesting thread (readme file) on improvements since Rybka 2.3.1
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1240#fp
Rybka is undoubtly the strongest chess engine, but is it now the best partner to analyze correspondence chess games and the best anti-human engine !? .. Any opinions ?
Michael Aigner (2007-06-15 12:53:31)
It depends
Hello Thibault
In my opinion is Rybka very strong in the middle game as long as you got a position where a kingside attack is not possible - otherwise you should use some other engine. My experiance is that Rybka nedds some more plys to see the danger (or opportunity to attack), than other engines do.
In Endgames it is also good but check always with Fritz or Shredder if you want to avoid ending in a dead drawn ending with an Rybka evaluation of +1
Best regards
Michael
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-15 14:32:49)
Strelka 1.0
Some interesting readings in Talkchess & Rybka forums about this new engine : Strelka 1.0 x32
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=9297
http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.php?p=117821
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/404/
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20BestVersion/rangliste.html
Is Strelka only a joke about Rybka (and a clone of an earlier version) or the 'little arrow' (Strelka in russian) that will catch Rybka in future...
I don't know much about this one but its first ratings are "not bad" ! .. Any informations more ?
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-15 17:12:39)
Online chess today
A few links to discussions at TCCMB (The Correspondence Chess Message Board) on chess servers nowadays, future of ICCF, correspondence chess [once more] and so on...
http://ancients.correspondencechess.com/index.php?topic=105.0
http://ancients.correspondencechess.com/index.php?topic=109.0
In the second discussion I tried to answer on the future of correspondence chess & chess engines :
1) Like the 'tour de France', it is impossible to organize a "bicycle race" at chess without doping today IMO. Also there are so many 'products' : Various books, databases, engines, human help.. so it seems to me that it is a non-sense to try to make it like an OTB tournament. Online chess is "motorcycle races" & freestyle, nothing else.
2) The ratio of wins does not decrease much in computer games & advanced chess (blitz), and correspondence chess games will never be all drawn IMO. We just have to follow the horizon line... Engines still have difficulties when there are 32 pieces on the board... Make the position more and more complex & critical, play Benoni structures, East indians and English openings... There will probably be more and more draws but when looking at CC 2500+ games, the ratio is still quite good. The problem at CC is mainly the style of play with humans 'humanly' trying to remain in known positions where they can win and can't lose.
'The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy', 'Opportunities multiply as they are seized' (Sun Tzu)
A solution is to make rules that motivate players to avoid draws, particularly when playing against a higher rated opponent. (ie. the rule for FICGS 8-games matches)
3) We feel that engines play almost perfect chess because of our poor human's level of play (I should say ratings)... But engines & computers have to improve a lot yet - not obvious they can do it in a more or less near future -, the horizon line is not so far, each version of Rybka wins about 30 elo points... We'll see engines at level 3200, 3300 maybe much more... (4000 ?)
4) If too many players have their CC rating between 2750-2800 in future, we can make new rules : Ratings wouldn't be calculated on the basis of each game, but on the basis of ie. 8-games matches... Then strategy would be more important & we would see rating gaps again between the best players...
Finally if I'm completely wrong, play Big Chess ;D
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 02:05:59)
World Computer Chess Championship (WCCC)
Is this World Computer Chess Championship still worth something without programs such as Hiarcs, Junior & Fritz ?
This way, only 3 or 4 games are decisive and undoubtly - or I should say randomly - Rybka will win ahead of Zappa and Shredder. At least Rybka will obtain the "last major" title to pretend to be the very best chess engine.
WCCC 2007 - http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/news.php
Wayne Lowrance (2007-06-18 04:04:57)
World Computer Chess Championship (wccc)
Rybka does not need to pretend to be the best. Matey it is the best, period.
Wayne
Dirk Ghysens (2007-06-18 06:11:14)
Top programs
According to the CCRL rating list, the top programs today are:
1 Rybka
2 Zap!Chess
3 Hiarcs
4 Naum
5 Loop
6 Deep Shredder
Fritz (7th) and Junior (8th) are so weak, that they cannot play a significant role in a world championship. The latest version of Rybka (2.3.2) can be estimated at more than 200 Elo points above Deep Fritz and Deep Junior.
The SSDF rating list is unreliable IMO, as they are using antiquated hardware, and several of the best programs are missing.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 06:26:11)
WCCC
Computerchess rating lists are very different from human's ones. Fritz & Junior are not so weak (ok, maybe Junior is :)) .. At least they can beat Loop and Naum. Anyway I meant that more strong programs should play at the WCCC, the results can't be significant this year because too few interesting games will be played (and there was a bug in some Rybka game). At last I agree about CCRL, it is more trustable than SSDF rating list.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 15:23:11)
Rybka is world champion !
Rybka is the new World Computer Chess Champion, with the score of 10 out of 11. Congratulations to Vasik Rajlich and Rybka team !
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/news_item.php?id=25
Alexander Shalamanov (2007-06-18 16:06:48)
Is Rybka any good?
I thought Shredder or Zap!Chess were the likely favorites. Well, the result that Rybka has achieved is very, very impressive!
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 16:50:43)
Rybka vs. Chessbase
Hello Alexander.
Rybka tops all computer chess rating lists for 18 months already, and by about 100 points ! ... It is the best playing program, maybe (I'm not sure yet) the best analysis tool for correspondence chess.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 22:09:02)
Shredder is world champion... too !
It seems Shredder won the blitz tournament (few games also) ahead of Rybka !
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/tournament.php?id=177
Well, why not :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-20 03:38:27)
Chessbase
Chessbase made a full report on the 15th ICGA WCCC and Rybka's victory, despite half their leading programs did not even participate.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3936
Congratulations to them, that's fair play :)
Albert Popov (2007-06-20 12:40:06)
We are in need of a good challenge!
I don't think Rybka could win in the same overwhelming manner, if Deep Junior the Horrible took part in the tournament. Why, it might be a well-thought move on the Junior team's part. Aren't we in for another Rybka - Junior thrilling match challenge soon? I would bet on Junior in that chess brain war as Junior's long-standing loyal customer.
Garvin Gray (2007-06-20 13:54:40)
equal equipment
If given equal equipment, I would back Rybka.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-20 15:03:22)
Rybka vs. Deep Junior
We'll have to wait & see :) .. I would be surprised if Junior beats Rybka in a 6-games match or so. In my opinion Junior is the old generation already, playing psychology while Rybka simply plays good chess. But let's wait the next versions, Junior most probably has an excellent software basis to make a very strong engine.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-20 22:54:33)
Internet chess
Well, the discussion with Tryfon Gavriel continues at TCCMB. As I had to explain the way I make FICGS, I copy my responses here :
http://ancients.correspondencechess.com/index.php?topic=109.15
Hello again Tryfon !
That's a very interesting discussion...
Actually I have to explain FICGS in its whole to respond :) .. To be continued for sure..
While registering a new member wrote to me a few months ago "Thanks for creating this ultimate chess challenge" or so... That's exactly what I try to do, mostly with the FICGS championship knockout & round-robin rules... Players just want challenge, that's the only assumption I start with, so I try to create interesting challenges. About the intellectual part, you're right but I'm quite sure that top level correspondence chess players still consider their game as an intellectual challenge, much more than a brute force or computer skills one. That's not the case for Advanced chess with fast time controls.
Let's take a look at the bicycle races again... The "Tour de France" is dying IMO.. because everyone understood we "don't know" if the champion is ok.. If doping was allowed (it would be a scandal for health of course), I'm sure the interest would raise again ! I think it is the same for chess & for everything else... The "Tour de France" syndrom happened in Elista with the match Kramnik vs. Topalov... It will have consequences. We need champions and we want true champions, every means are ok for this ! .. So the "engines allowed" rule is the only one possible or reasonable in my opinion.
Of course, chess & correspondence chess are changing, because these "walls" are nearer & nearer... maybe chess will die, maybe not.. The main problem is that in 1997, a super computer became World Champion... this year a "simple" computer Deep Fritz became world champion, soon Rybka on a cellular phone... :) Who is really interested to be a champion in "human category" ? FIDE world chess championship will continue to progressively lose its interest IMO...
Correspondence chess is just starting to grow in popularity and is told to be dying already. Surely correspondence chess will ask more & more time at a high level to win a few points, but it is possible to create more challenge by ie. changing the rating rules (the "design" of Elo rating system will become a problem).. Then, if it is not enough, we'll look for other challenges... It's told for years that Go (Weiqi) will replace chess in western countries... why not Big chess as the "brain only" game if there can't be doping in it.. just trying, as there's no other solution :)
A word about Poker of course, as it's probably the fastest growing game in popularity : IMO this game is at a stade like chess in year 1900, but the same problem will happen, even quicker. At a high level the game will be just more and more boring (if you wish to win real money) or chancy (in a wch tournament), or you'll have to always find weak players (well, not very challenging).
About the simultaneous exhibition against Alekhine or Capablanca, I'm not sure at all they would crush everyone at our chess servers, they are undoubtly more talented than all of us, but I feel it wouldn't be enough in all cases to win against correspondence chess style of play & knowledge accumulated for 50 years... A few players rated OTB 2000-2200 could draw against them IMO...
At last, yes I'm a fan of Sun Tzu's "The art of war" :) .. I strongly believe that correspondence chess will not die in the next few years because players will follow its principles more and more, as the only way to win ! .. Big chess follows the same principles... and Go is the most challenging game because of it too !
Tryfon, I'm not sure that we're opposite in our vision of chess ! .. Our servers have obviousy different goals, nothing more.. I do enjoy playing mad blitz games without chess engines... I just believe that the future of internet chess is "serious (engines allowed, rated) correspondence chess" on one hand and "human chess for fun (no engines, unrated)" on the other hand... The other ways look like nonsense to me.
I hope it responds.
Best wishes, Thibault
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-22 20:30:57)
Rybka's strength at CC time controls
An interesting poll, following a discussion at TCCMB :
http://ancients.correspondencechess.com/index.php?topic=109.msg809
Let's say Rybka playing alone, running 4 days per move (quite useless IMO) on a multi-processor computer, which rating would it/she achieve at FICGS ?
In my opinion, 2200 (with some peaks to 2300) would be great already... What do you think ?
Michael Aigner (2007-06-22 21:27:50)
Re: Rybka's strength at CC time controls
I think you are right with your Elo approximation (2200 to 2300). There is just a little problem. In the case everybody would know he/she is playing against the latest Rybka version this would be a big problem for the program.
In this case Rybka should loose almost every game because everybody would know Rybkas response to any move and could build wonderful traps.
Did you hear about the so called "Planetenmatch" (match of the planets) where correspondence Chess GM Arno Nickel played against several Programms of unknown identity (the alias was the name of a planet). I think the engines had 24 hours per move and no chance - a desaster for the programs. That was of course before Rybka appeared, on the other hand he won also against Hydra!
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-22 22:35:34)
GM Arno Nickel vs. engines
I heard about this match (that happened on the Chessfriend server if I remember well)... but it seems that actually the engines won 3,5 - 2,5 ! .. A quite surprising result. Hydra was everything but designed to play at correspondence chess time controls, so let's wait for a more interesting experience, most probably with Rybka.
Nick Burrows (2007-06-22 23:35:27)
engine strength..
Surely if different engines beat a correspondance GM at 24 hours per move, then their est. rating on 4 days per move should be higher than 2200-2300. Especially Rybka.
Glen D. Shields (2007-06-23 00:14:24)
Chess Engine Strength
Thibault - I've been following the TCCMB discussion. I think it's impossible to answer the question what rating Rybka can achieve under the uncontrolled circumstances we play. If Rybka were playing only against humans, it would achieve a 2600+ rating. Since it plays mostly against itself and other top engines (with little human intervention), the typical results are win a few games, lose a few games and draw a lot.
Since tournaments are mostly set up so that players face opponents with similar ratings, a 2220 rated player using Rybka enters a tournament against other 2200 players. That player wins a few games, loses a few, draws a lot and leaves the tournament at approximately 2200. We conclude from that pattern that Rybka can achieve a 2200 rating.
Conversely, a player (like Uri Blass) who enters tournaments at 2600 and plays other 2600 rated opponents using Rybka wins a few games, loses a few games and draws a lot. He leaves the tournament rated approximately 2600. We conclude for that situation Rybka is rated 2600.
IMHO, it is impossible to answer the Rybka rating question under our typical tournament circumstances.
I think an even better question than worrying about Rybka's strength is "does anyone REALLY enjoy CC anymore?" Today's CC's is a race to buy the fastest hardware and make sure SSDF's top rated programs are installed. I'm playing beginners who can't explain what "en passant" is, but by parroting Rybka they compete in top tournaments and claim to hold titles that once upon a time had to be earned through hard work. After passing through the opening, it doesn't take much effort to figure out what program your opponent is using. At that point one can predict with high probablitlty every move your opponent will make for the rest of the game. Rarely do I see a move that I can can beat. The games are boring and pedictable. Those blunders and surprises that we once wrote funny stories about are long gone. IMO so is the fun.
Sorry to sound so "pessimistic," but until these problems are addressed and the fun is restored I find it just as easy to play against my computer. I can play at my pace, chose the engine I want to play, and unless my computer crashes I no longer have to worry about DMD :-)
Thanks for such a well run place to play chess. You do a great job maintaining it.
My best,
Glen
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-23 06:06:29)
Chess Engine Strength
Hello Glen !
I see your point, that's quite true and a consequence is what I called at TCCMB "the extensive nature of elo rating", however rating rules are more dynamic at FICGS.. So, let's say Rybka playing the FICGS championship against players of all kinds of ratings in the round-robin cycle... Anyway 2200 is only my feeling.
I understand your views about "rybka" [correspondence] chess nowadays, even if I don't agree with it completely. I saw some of your CC games played at IECG, and it looks much more like 'good old' chess with some unusual and beautiful tactical openings than typical 'correspondence computer chess' nowadays. I do believe there will be a place in the next CC years for more weird openings like bird, king's gambit, english... Also take a look at Peter Schuster and Wladyslav Krol games here !? .. Nothing boring with them, chess engine or not :)
Also advanced chess games with fast time controls could be quite interesting to watch in future as a way to see granmaster games with chess engines avoiding blunders 'only' (ok a bit more). We don't know exactly the human part in it, but draws won't be the rule for sure.
What is "boring" at correspondence chess (not new) is that achieving a top rating take a long... very long time ! .. But this is a great challenge yet IMO.
At last, thanks for you kind words :)
Best, Thibault
Ilmars Cirulis (2007-06-23 06:26:21)
Poisoned Pawn Variation
Between engines:
Rybka vs Shredder in WCCC Round 11 [Re8 1-0]
Flyingfatman vs Mission control in Freestyle Final Round 1 [Re8 1-0]
Fritz vs Junior Game 3 [Re8 1-0]
Michael Aigner (2007-06-23 12:55:32)
Rybka 2.3.2a would!
Hi!
Rybka follws the mentioned game Motley -Anand but finds an improvement at move 24.
24. Bh5 Qf5 26. Bxg7 with an unclear (IMO, according to Rybka equal position.
it could follow Nc5 (Kxg7 26.Rf1) 26. Rxd8+ Kxd8 27.Kd6 Kd3+ 28.cxd Qa5+ 29.Ke2 Kxg7 still unclear, but in an otb game i would shourly prefer to play white.
I can imagine when you look deeper in the position after Bh5 you might find a win for white - or lets say a variation in which it is almost not possible for black to defend in an otb game even when the objective evaluation says the position is equal. This could be the reason why Re8 is prefered by strong human GMs.
Albert H. Alberts (2007-06-25 14:36:49)
World Computer Chess Championship (WCCC)
All:
JUNIOR has won over Fritz in Elista.RYBKA wins Olympiade Amsterdam.
It got me thinking: instead of being an 'engine-to-engine contest can it be that the whole thing is a book-to-book contest? The program that has the best opening book with novelties will come out on top, invariant from the engine.
Is that why RYBKA is so good? IM V.Rajlich?
The future WC will be the program with the best book. The future WC tournament chess will be the one who knows this book. Maybe they will be one and the same person? Great news for the sport I think.
Greetings Albert H. Alberts,Amsterdam www.howtofoolfritz.com
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-25 15:17:50)
Rybka's book
Sure the secret of Rybka is not its/her opening book ! .. But that's very important matter anyway.
Alexander Shalamanov (2007-06-26 11:26:12)
Books or technique?
It's as simple as that: Rybka just outplayed her opponents in middlegames. Books have something to do, of course, but not that much. She just plays better in opening to middlegame and middlegame to ending phases. Oh, Junior, you are still better! And mind you, I'm not betraying while saying that. Amicus (mihi) Plato, sed magis amica veritas! (Plato is my friend but the truth is more precious!)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-26 14:28:24)
Correspondence chess / Rybka
The Rybka's correspondence chess rating discussion moved from TCCMB to Rybka forum :)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1516#fp
Wolfgang Utesch (2007-06-26 16:06:08)
Ratings
The discussion of ratings is very problematic. Ratings on different sites are depending on different premises. What entry level was accepted? How long did you playing there – how often? How much thinking time did you spent per move? Is the basic rating you earned over years to be caused by old tournaments with postcards (maybe without any help of engines – and your opponents did it the same way)? How much care did you spent ratings (i.e. Norm tournaments?!)? Are you a member of the exclusive cycle of an organisation, getting invitations to closed high-level rating tournaments?
Engines (also Rybka) are playing own styles and it depends on whether you can play better or worse against their special styles (knowing their potencies and weaknesses). Old fashioned players (independent from their ratings) will have much more problems to win or to hold draw against engines than players which have positioning themselves at actual situation. In my opinion today Rybka alone with one week thinking time per every move without any other help will reach a rating of about 2.400 at FICGS SM-tournament with an average rating of 2.450.
In an ICCF anniversary tournament (average rating of about 2.600) same Rybka under same conditions will reach a rating about 2.550.
I for myself wouldn’t play longer correspondence chess, if I would have the feeling that any engine is playing better without my command. How long will it still take?
My engine handling is not in this way, that I am waiting for longer times which move is offer by the engine. I have own ideas and I’m trying their possibilities, investigating positions in depth over many moves in all directions. But sometimes engines have the better ideas and I have to accept this!
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-26 16:28:41)
Ratings
Fully agreed ! .. By the way, what performance could achieve Rybka (mp) in a CLASS M or CLASS A tournament. Finally, in average about 2200-2300 IMO.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-07-14 01:39:07)
SSDF changed its url
You can now find the top chess programs SSDF rating list here :
http://ssdf.bosjo.net
April 2007 :
1 Rybka 2.3.1 Arena 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2962
2 Rybka 1.2 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2909
3 Hiarcs 11.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2871
4 Junior 10.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2867
5 Junior 10 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2851
6 Hiarcs 10 HypMod 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2845
7 Fruit 2.2.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2837
8 Shredder 10 UCI 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2830
Thibault de Vassal (2007-07-14 02:57:01)
Rybka vs. Ehlvest (2nd)
A new 6-games match occured during july 2007 between the latest version of Rybka and GM Ehlvest with some "advantages" given to the human. One more time, Rybka convincingly won the match : 4,5-1,5
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1614
Well, not so bad after Kramnik's 4-2 loss vs. Deep Fritz... Help, we need help :)
Wolfgang Utesch (2007-07-14 07:57:53)
Rybka vs. Ehlvest (2nd)
Where is the problem? No men would compete in a run against a car.
Wolfgang Utesch (2007-07-14 11:51:13)
Rybka vs. Ehlvest (2nd)
Computers and programs (like engines and i.e. cars) are tools for (and from) men, designed to help them, but not really designed to work against them.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-07-14 14:10:43)
Rybka vs. Human
That's a quite pessimistic vision of chess today, but maybe I'm too optimistic yet :)
In my opinion it would be interesting to see this kind of match with longer time controls... maybe 30 minutes + 30 minutes / move. The human play could be much more organized and secure, with less time pressure.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-07-14 14:31:34)
Strelka : Rybka clone ?
It seems the issue on whether Strelka is a clone of Rybka 1.0 or not has not ended... An interesting thread about it in Rybka forum, comparing code of both chess engines :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1655
Wayne Lowrance (2007-07-14 18:10:06)
It is a clone
If it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, acts like a fish, it is a FISH. The topic has not gone away, not for a long time. He reversed engineered Rybka 1, period. We will watch it's progress. :)
Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2007-07-14 18:37:07)
It is a clone 2.
The following is just one of many close observations. There are so many documentations I would not try to sum them up. :)
The main problem is identical or almost identical analysis both in evaluation and search.
Studying rybka's output in order to improve your evaluation(assuming rybka has better evaluation) make sense but even in that case I do not expect a program to have identical evaluation to rybka even in situations when it does not make sense to have evaluation that is different than 0 as King against king.
Rybka tries to hide her evaluation but not writing output at small depth and this is the reason that I am basically interested in analysis of fortress
positions because in fortress positions the evaluation is partially exposed.
It is logical to learn from this experience of analysing fortress position and get evaluation that is more similiar to rybka but having evaluation that is totally identical in more than one case does not make sense and it cannot be an accident and the problem is not only identical evaluation but also identical search in many positions as evidence proved and even if the evaluation is different I can find the same patterns in the score changes.
This can happen only with copying code and it cannot happen without cloning.
The programmer of strelka did not understand rybka's code otherwise he could avoid the same bugs.
Same pattern of drop in the evaluation score when you have a queen.
This pattern is also in old strelka.
Why does it happen?
Note that no other program that I know shows drop in evaluation for white by more than 3 pawns.
Strelka's score drops from
+- (12.53) in depth 6 to 8.50 in depth 7
Rybka's score drops from 12.34 pawns in depth 4 to 8.37 pawns at depth 5
I find this compelling, if you understand it
Wayne
Jason Repa (2007-07-15 09:29:04)
Rybka vs. Human
Conversely, computers, or AI in general, are still very primitive with regards to activities that are simple for a four year old to conduct, such as shape and speech recognition.
I agree with Utesch, there is no point in losing any sleep over the increasing improvement of computers in chess. We need not be in competition with them.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-07-15 14:17:47)
Rybka vs. Human
Hello Jason.
You are right, but I doubt this "war" will end soon. Unlike pure calculation, chess is a symbol of intelligence, even if it's said to be pure calculation since Deep Blue won the match over Kasparov 10 years ago. It will be always possible to draw against the best computers, so there will always be challengers to try to equalize in a match against the king Rybka or any other super-calculator. Some will succeed, undoubtly... That's a question of time. And they will be chess heroes :)
About Go, the same cars on another circuit are not so successful, so why not to continue the race championsip anyway ? .. There is life, so there's hope... :)
Wolfgang Utesch (2007-07-15 14:55:22)
Rybka vs. Human
Thibault, in my oppinion problem is your definition of intelligence. Is Kasparov really more intelligent than i.e. Jean-Paul Satre (or Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)???
A man like Bobby Fisher was/is showing, that excellent specialised skill (of chess) nothing has to do with enough intelligence for life!
Jason Repa (2007-07-15 15:35:45)
Rybka vs. Human
Well Mr. Utesch, you clearly know nothing at all about Mr. Fischer. His IQ was evaluated at 180, so there is no debate about his intelligence. This has been well documented You seem to be confusing intelligence with social grace or being a good politician.
Also, in addition to his well-known chess accomplishments, Fischer is a published author of several very popular books and inventor of chess variant FischerRandom (or chess 960 if you prefer), as well as an innovative clock. What have you accomplished in comparison?
Jason Repa (2007-07-15 18:24:07)
Rybka vs. Human
I just find it quite amusing how some 1900 chess player with no medical degree feels himself qualified to sum up Fischer in a few sentences with some pop psychology labels.
Also, I don't know what you're trying to prove by mentioning Luther-King, Ghandi, etc. They were famous people who were extremely influential in their time. They were certainly no dummies, but I don't know if they had a 180 IQs.
I would mention people like Tesla, Jung, and Von Braun for examples of extremely intelligent people from the past.
Jason Repa (2007-07-15 19:21:37)
Rybka vs. Human
Actually burrows, as usual, you have everything completely backwards. You're the little character here trying to pass yourself off as a DR., not me. If you're going to pretend to be an educated man, you should at least learn how to spell FISCHER. Fischer's IQ has been tested when he was in high school and was in the 180's. I'm not going to hold your hand here, learn how to look something up for yourself for a change.
You're really making it quite obvious to everyone what you are with that silly comment about Fischer merely "winning some games".
And as usual your attention span isn't long enough to remember what we were talking about. It was INTELLIGENCE, not social influence.
Jason Repa (2007-07-15 19:45:58)
Rybka vs. Human
"I am low graded. I don't have a degree. I am a little character, pretending to be educated. i can't spell. I need my hand holding. i have no attention span. i make sill comments."
All of those statements are true, and in fact most of them can be proven by the information contained in this thread. The one exception, the low grade, can be confirmed by a simple google search showing all the under 100 bcf (under 1700 uscf).
I wasn't the one trying to prop myself up with alot of psuedo-intellectual psychobabble burrows....you were. I never said a word about myself here so don't start telling lies again. We were discussing Fischer. Unlike you, I don't need to drop pop psych. terms in internet forums to try to impress people. I know what my level of intelligence and education is.
Wolfgang Utesch (2007-07-15 19:48:18)
Rybka vs. Human
Jason, cool down - I've no problem with your devoutness of IQ definition. You can exercise IQ tests - maybe OTB chess training is also a good way to prepare for IQ tests. A book author isn't always a good writer but his editor!
But, what is about social intelligence, intelligence for survival, intelligence for profession/business (beside chess) and so on!
Jason Repa (2007-07-15 19:59:20)
Rybka vs. Human
Wolfgang, YOU cool down.
I never specified any "devoutness" to IQ definition but as I said, it appears you're a bit confused as to what IQ is. You seem to think it has something to do with social skills, or other miscellaneous skills. But we've been over this already. You should have caught on by now.
Social "intelligence", survival ability, etc, are examples of skills, not intelligence. According to your logic, or more precisely, your lack of logic, a world-class yo yo expert has an IQ of 180, a world-class rock climber has an IQ of 180, etc. Heck, anyone who is good at anything has an IQ of 180.
Is some of this starting to sink in yet?
Ivan Pljusnin (2007-08-10 14:29:54)
IGAME and FICGS are cyber-nations?
It sounds very promising. I guess, the most respectable citizens are Fritz, Shredder, Rybka and some other engines who have dual citizenship. :-)
If FICGS intends to extradite --- [moderator : name deleted] please do it after he finishes his match games. :-)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-08-10 21:29:49)
Hiarcs forum
After the successful Rybka forum - http://rybkaforum.net (about 20,000 posts in a few months), I just discovered the HIARCS forum... Let's hope that Hiarcs chess engine will improve the same way thanks to these new forums - http://www.hiarcs.net/forums
Dirk Ghysens (2007-08-30 01:56:16)
Poland
Tomasz Markowski
and
"rybka" Iweta Rajlich.
Jason Repa (2007-09-05 15:11:44)
HAL9000: "I think you missed it Dave"
The fact of the matter is that you'll never be able to tell for certain if someone is consulting a program or not in corr. chess, so why fret about it?
You have several options:
1) There is otb chess. Unless your opponent is pulling out his palm computer with pocket fritz in the washroom, you can be reasonably certain it's a mano e mano game.
2)There is also fast internet chess on a secure server such as playchess.com. I'm not sure how secure ICC is these days. If the games are 3 min or shorter you can be pretty certain it's human chess at least 99.9% of the time.
If you want to play corr. chess, fine, but why play a game called "let's worry about whether or not my opponent is making good on his promise to not look at the rybka engine suggestions". Just use it for what modern corr. chess really is...which is an excellent form of group study to prepare for REAL chess, ie, OTB chess.
Glen D. Shields (2007-09-06 04:20:15)
Engine Use - My Take
The switch from postcard to server chess has been a wonderfully positive experience.
The transition from human chess to silicon chess on the otherhand has left me bored and wondering if there's still a purpose to the game.
Every tournament is the same. The tournament starts with 6 to 10 players. The moves transition out of the opening at lightning speed, then "Fritz and Rybka time" begins. Turn on your favorite engine and there's a >95% probablitity that your opponents' moves mimic the top engines. There are no surprises, nothing interesting, just boring repetition.
Only a few percent of the chess world can outplay the top engines on fast hardware. Human intervention is like adding a drop of water to a bucket of water and thinking you've made a difference. Most matches are one computer versus another computer and the results are predictable: 1-2 wins, 1-2 losses, most of the games drawn.
I don't oppose engine use. There's no way to enforce it, so there's hardly a reason to forbid it. I do question, however, its purpose. It's just as easy and entertaining for me to play against my computer as it is to play your computer ... and I can do it on my timeline not yours.
I played a friendly young man earlier this year in the ICCF. He was vocal and proud of his high rating and good reults. He'd been playing for less than a year. He eventually admitted through our friendly chat that he hardly knew the moves and rules. He had no idea what "en passant" was or the basic theory of the openings. It took everything I had to save my position and earn a draw from him. That game was "my epithany." I made up my mind to take a break and reconsider what CC is all about. Engine use has been a great technical accomplishment, but has it made CC more enjoyable? Not for me. I hope most of you feel differently.
Good luck and good chess to all :-)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-06 12:29:10)
Glen D. Shields
Hello Glen !
We had this discussion before, indeed chess engines killed imagination and a part of the fun. The game has changed a lot, more since Rybka appeared. Correspondence chess is now how to beat Rybka, that's a fact... and a new challenge.
Did you try another game, like Big Chess or Go (I really enjoy playing these games), where engines are completely useless and now both rated at FICGS ? My two cents ;)
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-06 22:10:04)
Rybka
Hi Thibault
Could you say a bit more about Rybka how it has changed things? I have only ever used Fritz. CC for me is about chess research finding the truth about certain positions and openings and it helps in "real" chess. Its a fairly level playing field as all the programs are affordable but it sounds like us non rybka folk are at a disadvantage! And in the real chess world computer assisted work is obviously a huge part of the game.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-06 23:29:46)
Rybka
In my opinion, the whole correspondence chess level has improved with Rybka. So it is probably a new step towards the 100% draws also (at the highest level)... Fortunately the last step will never happen ;)
Anyway that's why some strong players are bored with correspondence chess.
Christophe Czekaj (2007-09-07 12:44:20)
To Jason
Hello Jason !
It’s just a question to have the possibility to play correspondence chess (for fun, not neccesarily studying or analysis, just the pleasure of finding moves, ideas (you know, what Bronstein called imagination) not rating, not to be classified as expert, or I don’t know what…) with people without computer. If they lie and use computer ; OK, we can’t be sure, but I’m certain you could accept that some players can trust other players when they say they don’t use computers. For example, I trust Philip when he said this, it’s just a question of being a gentleman. If there are cheaters ok, so what… Rybka will win
And I don’t undestand your topic about class of players : I hope I‘ve the right of posting some commentaries on this forum, despite the fact being largely behind you in term of rating… I think we can still play chess without computer, and with rating or not, it’s the same game for me. Philip and I just think it could be kind to play with other players with a kind of gentleman’s agreement. Sorry if it bother you
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-10 21:05:48)
chess engines
Following Thibault's comments about Rybka having changed correpondence chess I purchased the rybka engine. It is a very good program but I dont see how it has affected cc anymore than Fritz.
I have used Fritz 8 and 9 extensively for analysis and have until now no experience of other engines. Although I have just downloaded Toga II which is an excellent engine (and free!!) if anyone wants a free engine this is a top program that downloads in seconds and is up there with the commercial programs.
I noticed Rybka seems more conservative evaluating positions than Fritz. However it has blind spots. For an example taken from the current chess cafe "Yasser Annotates" (Ivanchuk Seirawan 1990)after 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 dxe 4 Nxe Bc5 5 Ng3 Bg6 6 h5 h6 7 Nf3 Nd7 8 h5 Bh7 9 Bd3 Bxd 10 Qxd Ngf6 11 Bf4 e6 12 0-0-0 Be7 13 c4 b5 Black offers a pawn my reaction is not to take - otb I would never take. Why open the c file for black and grabbing the pawn by Qxb5 looks risky with only 2 pawns to cover the king and open b and c files. Fritz prefers 14 c5 with 14 cxd followed by 15 Kb1 as 2nd choice after 3 minutes ply 15 depth
Rybka r chooses 14 cxb cxb then 15 Qxb5?! even after 1 hour at ply 19! In cc I would look at 14cxb and 15 Qxb5 to see if I could survive and win with the extra pawn but working with Fritz it takes but a few minutes to see black has compensation after 15 Qxb5 Nd5. When 16 Be5 gives an inferior endgame for white and 16 Bd2 Rb8 gives an attack for black. The top professionals work with a range of programs Fritz, Junior, Shredder, Hiracs and Rybka to generate ideas.
Does anyone have any views on these other program's characteristics?
Jason Repa (2007-09-10 22:20:52)
chess engines
Couldn't you have waited until our game is over before buying Rybka? lol!
Fruit 2.3 is the strongest free UCI engine that I know of.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-10 22:42:32)
chess engines
First of all, every chess engines is a choice, ie. about selectivity, and has consequences & weaknesses in particular positions. Fruit/Toga algorithm is really good but it has probably still much less chess knowledge than Rybka. I think Rybka's algorithm is really better also, Vasik Rajlich added some "human features" while other programs still think about chess like mathematics.
Rybka changed correspondence chess because Fritz or Junior (very strong chess machines) added to a good chess player makes a good centaur while Rybka is "almost" a centaur itself... Consequently a weak chess player can reach quite easily a 2100/2200 rating. That's the main reason...
Of course Rybka will always make some bad moves, but it/she builds an advantage move after move against other engines in most cases in 'calm' positions. HIARCS, that was told during a long time to think most like a human, was not a strong 'chess machine'. I don't know much about Hiarcs 11/12, but Rybka is a major improvement in this way IMO.
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-10 23:31:53)
chess engines
Hi Jason
As Thibault post indicates Toga is a fruit flavour ie fruit variant. Check CEGT rating list for single version engines (http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/rating.htm) Toga II is at no3 and Fruit 2.3 is at no 5 position. As for our game no engine is ever going to save me! Maybe 28 ..Rc8 would have held but earlier on 14 exd6 Bf6 15 Bxf8 Kxf6 16 Qf3 looks really disgusting for black. I am not going to blame the opening but Fritz and I are back to the Najdorf! Apparently Aagard had a book out on offbeat sicilianl ines in which he could find no way for white to gain an advantage in this Prins line hmm Im sceptical.
Thibault - thanks for expanding on your comments. I note your point about calm positions. The game I cited is the sort of wild position where Rybka is not so good later in the game it is convinced that 19 ..Nxf2 is good for black a move which loses and which fritz rejects fairly quickly.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-10 23:43:36)
Rybka
Rybka is clearly not designed for wild positions. In this case, knowledge is not efficient, Junior/Fritz are !
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-11 00:03:00)
CEGT Best Versions 40/20 (AMD 4200+)
1. Rybka 2.3.2a (2975) , 2. Hiarcs 11.1 (2831) , 3. Toga II 1.3.4 (2829) , ... 6. Fritz 10 (2826)
This gap (144 points) is really extraordinay...
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-11 22:04:32)
Chess comp ratings
Rybka is most dominant in the single processor versions when it comes to multi processor versions the gap is less and suddenly Zap chess appears. I am not sure why this is. Another point thats interesting is Rybkas endgame evaluations there is some significant difference with Fritz here. It seems a bit overoptimistic but sometimes it seems right. Finally a striking point when using Rybka is how comparatively few positions it is analysing per second compared to Fritz maybe only 10%. This illustrates Thibaults point about Rybka's far greater reliance on chess knowledge.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-11 22:12:31)
Chess comp ratings
"when it comes to multi processor versions the gap is less" .. maybe because the Rybka mp version in CEGT rating list uses 2 CPU while Zap! and other engines use 4 !?
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-12 07:36:30)
chess engines endgame play
Right Thibault! I am becoming more impressed with Rybka's endgame knowledge. It seems to have the extra pawn on just one side situations well understood. Is there any engine that is recognised as being the strongest at endgames? This is certainly an area where cc has helped me enormously as it has forced me to get some endgame books (and actually study them!)
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-12 16:51:49)
Gene
ok Gene let me give you my experience as to why you should use an engine in cc. 1) I have learnt a lot about certain openings and I remember lot more effective systems 2) finding the truth about a position is fun and instructive 3) I have acquired some endgame knowledge I never would have got. 4) Generally I wil try to understand why the engines like certain moves and drill down into the position trying altrentives until I get it. Sometimes in very wild positions its tough. Most of the the time this reinforces principles of develpoment pawn structure piece dynamism and I find it rubs off on my understanding. One proviso - if you take on too many games a lot of this wont work!
Facing a much lower rated player you have to do research and prepare something - trotting down the main line poisened pawn Najdorf may not be the way to go. A lot of top players go for catalan and english openings hoping to utilise their chess knowledge and research.
One thing is for sure always playing the best move of your engine is going to drop 1/2 points and lose some games and that includes Rybka. Finally all this stuff is done by all the top professionals in the otb chess. One example I faced the line that Kramnik got crushed with by Topalov playing b5 and f4. I looked at the game notes and databases and couldnt find a good response 45 minutes with fritz and I cracked it and in the process gained some insight into the opening. In fact its a harmless variation if you know the antidote but over the board one slip and Kram was toasted
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-19 13:45:30)
October 21
This should be the final date for the 1st FICGS freestyle tournament. As I had to finish the new interface, I'll only start to promote it today in forums and other websites...
About the time control, I agree that ie. 1h+20s would be less "Rybka mode" and more centaur, but it requires a lot of energy and time for a 6 rounds tournament. So let's give a try to 10m+20s, thus the tournament should last about 6 or 7 hours...
Until october 31, you'll be given 20% E-Points more when buying tickets :)
Garvin Gray (2007-09-19 13:53:32)
longer time control
Thibault: About the time control, I agree that ie. 1h+20s would be less "Rybka mode" and more centaur, but it requires a lot of energy and time for a 6 rounds tournament. So let's give a try to 10m+20s, thus the tournament should last about 6 or 7 hours...
Perhaps it could be held over 20/21 oct with 3 rounds per day of 1h + 20 secs.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-22 01:36:25)
Rybka vs. Zappa Mexico
While Anand, Kramnik and the other top chess players fight for the FIDE crown, it seems that another match is taking place in Mexico : Rybka vs. Zappa "Mexico".
http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=1239#more-1239
More info at Rybka forum - http://rybkaforum.net
Wayne Lowrance (2007-09-22 04:51:57)
Tough match for Rybka (n/t)
no text
Garvin Gray (2007-09-22 06:25:41)
walk in the park
Tough match for Rybka
Are you sure about that? Zappa programmers have only worked on upgrading the engine for eight days and before that they were in 'retirement' with no major updates coming out since Zanzibar. Zappa has admitted that 'Zappa Mexico' wont be much of an upgrade from Zanzibar.
Rybka has been upgraded and tuned many times since Zappa won the WCC. I think Rybka should win this match 6-4 or 7-3 with no losses.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-24 01:04:39)
Rybka vs. Zappa
What a surprise... Zappa now leading the match 3,5-1,5
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=2228
Even if Rybka plays without tablebases, the point is "The match will be played on two identical 8-cores computers"... So it probably means that Zappa's author Anthony Cozzie did it really well while implementing multi-processors engine. It would be interesting to know the performance of both engines compared to single processor version. Can Rybka be improved significantly this way ?! .. We'll see it soon, anyway nice to see a "real match" :)
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-25 10:28:20)
Match
I have to say guys having worked quite a bit now with Rybka (single procesor version) it has some flaws defending against attacking positions - sometimes underestimating the attackers chances and not just in irrational or very complex positions. So whatever the role of opening books (obviously big) I am not surprised at the result so far. Thats to take nothing away from Rybka - great program.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-25 22:00:51)
4,5 - 2,5
Another draw today (I read "wild draw and missed win from Zappa"). It seems that Zappa is going to win the match... but is this result significant as the engines worked on 8 cores ?! .. Hard to say, I just wonder if/how Rybka's performances can be improved on such computers...
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-26 18:45:47)
Chess, love... ego
In a discussion where Susan Polgar (in her new forum, see link below) encourages members to ask questions to strong OTB GM & IM, I suggested to ask them :
"...how the venue of Rybka and other engines crushing them OTB (ie. Hydra-Adams) in classical games affected their love of the game ! .. More than learning us & them humility, obviously noone can feel the same than Bobby Fischer in front of the chessboard anymore (and probably before him also). How can a human player love the game like he did, nowadays ? .. What is the place of the ego in this strange relationship ? Finally... do they play other games more and more as time passes ?"
An interesting point, undoubtly to be discussed, is the place of ego in the love of the game IMO. Go players may have an interesting point in this discussion ;)
http://www.chessdiscussion.com
http://www.chessdiscussion.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=196
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2007-09-28 00:36:03)
Comment
This remark was made by past freestyle winner Equidistance in the rybka forum:
"This FICGS site is very unclear, impossible to find anything. No clear summary about what these e-points are all about, very long terms and conditions, really I doubt anybody will spend so much time to even find the page about Freestyle Cup, which is hidden under one of many menus."
Maybe navigation could be made easier for new players interested in the tournament.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-28 03:43:36)
Zappa wins the match
Finally Zappa beats Rybka 5,5-4,5, which is quite an enormous surprise !
Many interesting discussions followed in forums about chess engines programming, Zappa & Rybka strengths and weaknesses, how search & evaluation functions influence each other... and luck :
http://64.68.157.89/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=147594&t=16732
http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=254&start=105
Thibault de Vassal (2007-10-11 12:43:33)
pinot noir, knowledge & 9x9
I agree with that :)
Don, I mean 9x9 should be compared to checkers, it is "chess" at a size where brute force is enough, so a 'particular case' only. But just like Rybka/Hiarcs playing at master level even thinking a few seconds per move by imitating (knowledge + algorithm) an international master's way of thinking more than calculating trillions of positions, why not a Go engine built the same way, much more complex though. Actually Go engines do not calculate much, they try to 'see' already but sure these programs will be improved significantly soon and it could play about the same level (without joseki databases) on different goban sizes. I feel a Go engine could reach a 1 dan / 2 dan level on our small computers, whatever the size of the goban... But it should be incredibly harder to beat stronger players, which is great for Go :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-10-14 01:48:13)
Rybka mp.
An interesting discussion about Rybka & Rybka mp.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=2398
Thibault de Vassal (2007-10-20 05:17:30)
Rybka 3, Fritz 11, Shredder 11...
Rybka 3, Fritz 11, Shredder 11, also Chessmaster 11... new versions of many engines are announced or coming (Fritz 11 - end of november).
It is said in computer chess forums that one secret of Rybka may be "table of exchanges", in other words knowledge, added to a 'simple' & very fast engine typically like Fruit. Many now think that other engines may catch Rybka in a while, but we might have to wait for the thirteen series at least IMO :)
Anyway, the battle continues... Also waiting for Hiarcs 12 !
Thibault de Vassal (2007-10-31 18:51:22)
Deep Shredder 11 available
Amsterdam 2007 blitz world champion, Mainz 2006 World Computer Chess960 Champion, Reykjavik 2005 blitz world champion, Tel Aviv 2004 blitz world champion, Graz 2003 computer chess world champion & blitz world champion and so on...
No, that is not Rybka :) .. Deep Shredder 11 is now available and said by Chessbase to have an improved strength of 100 points elo, actually about 80 according to CEGT computer chess 40/20 rating list, which is not bad at all ! .. Evaluation function (passed pawns..) seems to be the main improved part of the engine.
Congrats to Stefan Meyer-Kahlen.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4218
Did someone try the new engine ?
Thibault de Vassal (2007-11-03 05:26:32)
Free engines to download
I see that Fruit 2.3.x and Toga II 1.3.x series (and of course Rybka 1.0) are still the best free chess engines to download, quite near Chessbase engines strength.
Shredder 11 seems to be sold with Fritz 10 interface and old 2007 chess games database, a good reason to buy forthcoming Fritz 11 ;) .. I assume that Chessbase will focus on the interface and Chessbase 11 (or.. 10, 12 ?! hard to follow)
Which is the current best free engine to help in correspondence chess games in your opinion ?
Wayne Lowrance (2007-11-03 16:33:43)
best free engine
well thats a hard one, but I still think Rybka is close, maybe best
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2007-11-19 02:50:40)
Fritz 11
Fritz 11 is now available... I just noticed that it already has a 2914 rating (single processor) at CEGT 4/40 (2 GHz), better than Shredder 11 and Hiarcs 11.1, but not better than Rybka 1.01, to be continued as this time control is usually not the best one for Fritz.
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_4_Ratinglist/40_4_AllVersion/rangliste.html
Thibault de Vassal (2007-12-12 05:36:58)
Fritz 11 near Rybka 2.3.2a
I just discovered the CEGT 40/20 new rating for Fritz 11, it confirms that Rybka will have serious opponents soon !
CEGT 40/20 : Rybka 2.3.2a - 2971, Fritz 11 - 2921 (50 points diff. only)
Waiting for Fritz 11 rating in CEGT 40/120 rating list.
Yugi Inving (2007-12-20 04:56:16)
Traxler
I take both colour on this oppening, just can i understand why you guys do Fxf2. now i know that this bishop is poisoned ( i am tired of losing agaisn't rybka for this reason.)
and does letting my enemy do their 0-0 or 0-0-0 is bad
Garvin Gray (2008-01-03 04:29:22)
Steve Lopez latest article on chessbase
My only comment is that I would have liked Steve to also have compared the chessbase engines to Rybka, Zappa et al
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4357
[moderator : please just leave a link to articles from other websites]
Garvin Gray (2008-01-04 17:37:57)
new engine
Considering buying one of the single processor engines.
Already have Rybka 2.3.2a and fritz 8 plus a few freebie engines.
Recommendations? I have looked at the cegt tables and cant see Shredder 11 there. I see Deep Shredder 11 there alot, but not just Shredder 11.
Have I read the tables incorrectly or is Shredder 11 just poorly rated in the cegt tables?
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2008-01-05 00:23:04)
Shredder 11
In CEGT they tested Deep Shredder using 1 CPU. There is ranked 3rd in 40/4 and 40/20 behind Rybka and Fritz 11. In CCRL 40/40 is second behind Rybka and just ahead of Fritz and Zappa Mexico. (All of this in 1CPU)
Robert Mueller (2008-01-03 09:38:38)
Great Article, but ...
Yes, a good article, which is missing similar information about Rybka, Zappa and maybe a few others. But copying the article here is strictly speaking illegal (© 2007, Steven A. Lopez. All rights reserved.). A link would have been enough.
Garvin Gray (2008-01-03 10:45:41)
understand
I can understand why Steve did not mention the other engines. It is a chessbase article after all and mentioning Rybka etc would be mentioning chessbase business competitors, especially if Steve thought that one of the 'competitors' was actually 'superior' to the four listed chessbase engines.
As for illegal, are you sure? I thought it was only illegal if I did not quote the source and give credit to the author of the article. I have mentioned where the article came from and gave credit to the author.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-02-04 19:33:56)
CCT 10
Rybka and Naum win the CCT10, Rybka finished 2nd in the IPCCC 2007, scoring 5.5/7, behind of Hiarcs. Rybka won another match against GM Joel Benjamin... and Rybka 3.0 should be available soon.
Some interesting threads in Rybka forum (Anthony Cozzie about Zappa, Strelka, Rybka 3)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=3172
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=3119
Marc Lacrosse (2008-04-28 08:06:12)
Eros Riccio won 8th Freestyle !
Eros Riccio (as "Ultima") won 8th Freestyle !
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=3894
Congratulations !
Marc
Marc Lacrosse (2008-05-01 18:03:17)
to Andrew
"I don't se much benefit to letting the computer think for hours frankly wants it gets to 20 + ply. There all sorts of horizons in positions that letting the computer run for a year wont sort out."
There are other ways to use engines than letting simply one of them run for hours.
You may interactively walk along the various branches of the tree going from current position with one or several engines running.
You may also have engines playing some kind of test matches against each other from the current position or from any critical position that you identify along the possible continuations.
You can use Rybka randomizer against itself or against other engines for more exhaustive evaluation through test games
And so on ...
"Marc why are you playing this c3 stuff against the sicilian with such great kit? You play the same openings all the time and I thought it was because you had not much time!!!"
1. I never played this disreputed c3 stuff against the 2..d6 sicilian (with or without the 4.Be2 pawn offer) before january 2008 in my 140+ former serious correspondence games
Indeed I did choose it because I erroneously enrolled in three new tournaments simultaneously and I feared to miss time for serious analysis due to heavy workload at that time.
Results are a bit disappointing with it : five draws so far and two unfinished games that I should win (one win is sure and the other one is probable).
This should lead to a 64% result and a 2333 elo performance. Not shining but not that bad insn't it ?
2. I like playing unorthodox openings in correspondence play.
I do not see any interest in beginning my games with 30 moves of overanalysed theory.
Most often I decide for a side variation and I do play it in as many games as possible simultaneously : I do the analysis job once for all while being fully "in the mood" of a similar set of positions.
Then I change for something else
I won't probably ever play any more game with the line I played against you.
3. An exception is the Basman-Sale Sicilian (2..e6 4..Bc5).
I like it a lot and even have a web site devoted to it (http://chessbazaar.mlweb.info/basmansale/index.html)
I am in a running series of more than twenty corr. games without a single loss with it and decided not to stop using it until defeat happens
I probably analysed it more than anybody : I have several thousands of analysed lines in my files.
I am just busy to consider switching to something more agressive for cases where I need to play for a win as Black.
Regards
Marc
Andrew Stephenson (2008-05-01 19:50:21)
Marc
Thanks for the informative reply! I do the interactive walk thing you mentioned its very useful though you need reasonable power to have several engines running at once - this you have! I am afraid I dont know how to organise test matches but sounds good. same with Rybka randomiser I have the engine but no idea how to use the randomiser and get it to play itself. 2 wins from the c3 is good as I think it gives white nothing ..but in the line I chose I noticed that after Gelfand (as black) got a draw against Adams with this line Adams repeated it aginst Kasparov who varied. So I guess Adams had an improvement perhap it was what you played? - as black has to find some very accurate moves . Incidentally I very nearly played 5..g5!!? which is really interesting but as my other games were promising decided to settle for taking a draw
I like the Basman-Sale and although I have given up e4 in cc will play e4 if we play again as I have some ideas against it. Thanks for the reply
Andrew Stephenson (2008-05-03 06:22:50)
Arena
I have loaded Rybka into Arena and it seems to be performing at a superchetged rate - unfortunately I cannot make sense of its analysis out put. I am used to a Fritz environment where you can select how many different moves it displays and it ranks them and assisgnsa value + 1.1 etc. it does the same for other uci engines. In arena hoe do I get this kind of output??
Josef Riha (2008-05-03 15:48:18)
Arena
Hello Andrew, try out the following:
Open the Engine-Paramter dialogue of Rybka and then:
Display PV Tips...on
Win Percentage to Hash Usage...on
Display Current Move...on
Preserve Analysis...on
For more information look at www.rybkachess.com and click on Parameters FAQ on the left side of the screen.
With best wishes, Josef.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-05 11:07:56)
Chess Titans
I just played my first games versus Chess Titans on Windows Vista :> .. what a joke, a way to tell Vista customers they are smart ? :) Ok, Microsoft's goal wasn't to rivalize with Chessbase engines or Rybka but they could have chosen another name... The program most probably don't reach a 1800 level.
Jason Repa (2008-05-07 01:09:36)
Step up, or shut up!
"I know that you're only a 1912 rated player on this site" Yeah, on this site... I began here as a 1700 (the first rating here)"
Join the club. I started as a 1700 player also. You've lost over 25% of your games. And to weak opponents at that. So I'm quite justified in assuming that I'm a better chess player than you, and by a very wide margin also. The fact that you couldn't figure out on your own why 10...Bf5 is no improvement over 10...Qe7 is just icing on the cake.
But anyway, I've had enough of you whining about your low rating and making excuses for your poor performance in chess. Excuses are for losers.
And there was nothing "arrogant" in any of my statements. The problem here is your stupidity and incapability at understanding what has been said to you. I've already explained to you TWICE that you were wrong in assuming that there was an implication that "material is everything" when I was discussing the recovery of material. That was not said nor implied. What part of this isn't sinking into your skull? How many more times does it need to be repeated for you to be able to understand???
I don't normally give free chess lessons to insolent patzers like you, but I'd be willing to have you a few bullet games on a secure server like playchess.com where in bullet time controls you won't be able to use your chess program to do the thinking for you like you do here. I've already had this type of thing go down with another motormouth on this site. I beat him 100% of the games and posted a link to them. At least he was man enough to step up to the plate and play me. You made the challenge so don't back down with any excuses, like the excuses you used to explain your paltry 1912 rating. And obviously if we're going to play real-time chess with the assumption is that its going to be human mind vs human mind chess, it's going to have to be fast bullet games. Not standard blitz where you have time to see what rybka running on your other computer suggests. Let me know what your playchess.com account name is and when you're able to play.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-19 21:54:37)
Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Junior 12
While Rybka 2.3.2a w32 1CPU/mp still leads CEGT rating lists, Fritz 11 is now only about 50 elo points behind...
CEGT 40/20 (AMD 4200+)
Rybka 2.3.2a w32 1CPU - 2966
Fritz 11 - 2913
Naum 3.1 w32 1CPU - 2890
Deep Shredder 11 w32 1CPU - 2890
Hiarcs 12 SP 1CPU - 2869
Toga II 1.4.2JD 1CPU - 2864
Fruit 2.4 Beta A w32 1CPU - 2864
Zappa Mexico II w32 1CPU - 2844
Any predictions on the future ratings of Rybka 3 & Chessbase engines : Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Junior 12, Hiarcs 13, Zappa or other free engines ?
I can't find a rating for Junior 11 in CEGT rating lists, does anyone know it ?
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-20 17:40:27)
New chess eninges champion
Maybe the surprising Naum, but I wouldn't be so surprised if Fritz 12 (let's say Fritz 13) finally catches the king Rybka.
Ilmars Cirulis (2008-05-21 19:21:42)
game
25.Nc3 dxc3 26.Qxc3 Qd4 27.Qf3 Ra7 (best) 28.axb5 Qf6
28.-- Rf6 is better, according Rybka.
Joseph Costello (2008-05-25 04:18:56)
rybka vs rybka at full preformance
Anybody have this program working at its full capacity who has made it play itself and has it recorded you could post ?
Wolfgang Utesch (2008-05-25 14:19:47)
Rybka vs Rybka a draw ....
... and what does it verify?
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-25 15:14:45)
Rybka vs. Rybka
Not a draw, maybe 50% but it should be about 54%
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-25 18:33:27)
Statistics
Statistics may look like CEGT or SSDF ones (ie. Rybka 2.3.2 vs. Rybka 2.3.1, with probably more draws as the engines versions are the same) but whatever the engine, it will win as White and Black sometimes.
Wayne Lowrance (2008-05-26 05:14:25)
Rybka vs Rybka
Thibalt your wrong !. If enough games are played to get rid of the noise and is statistical relevent then it will be a draw, period
Wayne
Gino Figlio (2008-05-26 07:03:03)
not always a draw
It all depends on what the start position is and the engine settings otherwise the randomizer mode in Rybka would not work.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-26 12:19:28)
Rybka vs Rybka
Ok, we all know that engines are not free will. With no randomizer, the regular start position, "normal" settings (do not avoid a draw at any price, regular values) and a large opening book [which is a quite good randomizer itself], I'm quite sure statistics after 500,000 games will look like 50% if Rybka 3 #1 & #2 play as both White & Black, 51 to 53% if Rybka 3 #1 play as White only while Rybka 3 #2 play as Black only, about the same (but not exactly) for Fritz 11 or other engines.
Wayne Lowrance (2008-06-02 18:54:39)
Rapid chess entry rating
I sure do not like the entry 2100-2300. I guarantee you, I will not enter here, and I doubt that any other mid 2200 player will enter either, It is a opportunity bracket for 2100 players. It is not easy I know to managed rating requirements for tournaments. But the proper bracket for the 2300 entry tourney should be 2200-2400. That is my opinion. So it the rating entry of 2100-2300 will attract 2100 players for the most part, a great opportunity for them to advance and a darn good chance that a 2200+ player to loose points (guaranteed) cause rybka prevails, in the hands of a 2100 Player. Bravo Rybka !
With respect
Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2008-06-08 06:24:35)
Rapid chess entry rating
Jayson Repa has a point but I think he is missing my point. If Engine help was not allowed, I would agree 100%.
But with engine help, in practice mostly Rybka, a 2100 player is grossly under rated, I mean gross. So that is a huge barrier to overcome for a 2200+ rated player.
It is not obvious that a 2300 player climbing the ranks against 2400 players has a larger barrier than a 2200 player reaching 2300.
\The point I am making is: It matters little the ratings in correspondence chess with very very long time controls. Rybka does not know or care, the lil girl just makes best moves anyhow.
The skill comes in when the human selects the best opening and is the most capable of steering his engine consistant with his chess knowledge.
Heck Mr Repa I would love to play 2400 players, my chance of loosing is no greater than losing to a 2100 player, both would be using Rybka or engine of their choice.
With respect sir
Wayne
Jason Repa (2008-06-08 20:37:40)
Rapid chess entry rating
No, Lowrance, you're the one missing the point here. And you're using engine assistance as much as anyone here, so don't pretend like you're somehow at a disadvantage. I've played you, and you're 100% program. Perhaps that's the problem.
Thibault mentioned once that a weak player running Rybka can get to around 2100 or so. To get beyond that requires some chess knowledge. While he may not be precisely accurate about the number....perhaps it's 2200 instead......nonetheless, the point is accurate. Everyone who's above 2000 on this site is consulting chess engines, but in corr. chess simply running a program alone is not the strongest way to play. You make it sound as though Rybka plays the perfect chess game. If that were the case everyone on this site would be rated about the same. It should be quite obvious to you that to go from 2300 to 2400 is much more difficult than going from 2200-2300. As a higher rated player, you get less points for winning or drawing, and lose more when you lose. As for your chances against 2400 players being the same as against 2100 players, that's pure nonsense. You'd be lucky to get the occasional draw against a 2400 player, (one who's really earned their rating and not just started with an artificially high rating as is the case with more than a few on this site) whilst you will lost most of those games. A higher rated player is higher rated for a reason. They win more games.
The correct spelling of my name should also be obvious to you, as it's on the same page that you're entering text into.
Jason Repa (2008-06-09 00:22:32)
Rapid chess entry rating
If you're not bright enough to figure out how to look up someone's rating, you better stick to "engine-assisted" chess. I'd probably beat you blindfolded in chess where you have to come up with the moves using your own mind. You're not even intelligent enough to figure out how to spell someone's name, when the spelling of it is right in front of you.
And for someone who doesn't want to engage in insults, you sure are doing a good job of insulting. Nice of you to "claim" I wouldn't accept your "challenge" of playing match games, before you even make the challenge. Obviously it's YOU who's backing down from match games with me, under the pretense of not having any time to play. What sheer nonsense. You seem to have a lot of free time on your hands....enough to blabber away with numerous forum posts where you whine about not being able to make it to 2300.
I'm challenging YOU to some human mind vs human mind chess on the playchess server right now. You can get a free trial account there (if you don't already have an account) in about 2 minutes. For a guy who's incessantly bickering about Rybka hurting your performance, you should love having the opportunity to prove to everyone reading this that you're not the spineless hypocrite coward I'm claiming you are and step up to the plate to play me some fast (so rybka or other engines cannot be consulted) online games.
Nice of you to tell us you have problems, but it was already obvious.
Andrew Stephenson (2008-07-15 22:46:50)
@ Rybka ELO 3000
Yes - I agree I think Rybka has about ELO 3000 :))
Thibault de Vassal (2008-07-18 14:24:09)
Chessbase Deep Rybka 3
Chessbase, who distributes the best chess engines (Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs, Zappa...) now also distributes the little fish : Rybka 3 and Deep Rybka 3 are available.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4772
Rybka 3 (by Vasik Rajlich) is the reigning computer world champion and should be at least 80 points stronger than the previous version Rybka 2.3.2
Did anyone test it already ? What about the improvements (particularly Monte Carlo Analysis in endgames) ?
Rybka 3 book with 3,387,966 positions (260 MB) is also available.
Wayne Lowrance (2008-07-19 05:32:16)
ChssBase Deep Rybka 3
I think 80 points is conservative. Big disapointment is you must buy the New Rybka 3.ctg book separetly,
Wayne
Robert Mueller (2008-07-19 07:31:33)
available? - not quite
Rybka 3 is not quite available yet. You could pre-order at Chessbase (if their website wasn't down) or at Convekta. But delivery willl begin on August 1 or August 4 depending on where you buy.
Garvin Gray (2008-07-19 10:57:17)
Rybka opening book
Wayne,
Do you really mean MUST? or is it that if you want the super duper Rybka opening book, that is will cost extra, but if you dont, then you can just use any of the older opening books?
Wayne Lowrance (2008-07-19 22:19:10)
Rybka Opening book
Howdy Garvin, My bad I should not have said "must" meant to say " if you wanted Rybka3.ctg you must buy it seperately.
Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2008-07-20 02:38:48)
Rybka Opening Book
In fact I will share an opinion that I have become to trust. That is, even the best books offered have a very short life expectancy. Certainly less than six months with active chess players such that play on "play chess" and even here. Book lines soon become refuted by these centaurs and a new private book of theirs emerges. I will admit that such is the case with me here on Ficgs. I have/use recognized good books that are available, but have my own small book that I consult.
Just an opinion and hope this shared info is taken in the helpful way I intended. So this would indicate that R3.ctg probobly is a great book, but against active centaurs will soon reduce its effectivity.
Thanks
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2008-07-29 04:22:11)
Rybka 3 "Human"
ChessBase just published a new article about new features in Rybka 3 that seems particularly dedicated to analysis with Rybka "Human". Among features : Shared analysis, Handicap book, Multiple variations, Monte Carlo Analysis and so on...
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4793
Now what can be reasonably expected in Rybka 4 ? :)
Thibault de Vassal (2008-08-01 04:19:01)
Rybka 3 encrypted
It seems that Rybka 3 would be actually even stronger that the commercial version of Rybka 3, Rybka team (V. Rajlich, L. Kaufman) explains that the compiled code was encrypted, as a consequence the engine would lose about 60 ELO points in that process.
A smart move by Vasik Rajlich to prevent his engine to be cracked by using simple decompiling tools. (ICE may help the most motivated though)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=5184
Andrew Stephenson (2008-08-12 08:54:10)
Latvian
I dont think black has anything better than 8...fxe maybe 9...d5 is better. But Whites 8 Nc3 seems a very good strong simple move. Its strange that it has not been analysed because the position has been looked at by Nunn and Watson - but that was in the pre Rybka era. Now 3...Nc6 looks too risky at cc.
So 3 Nxe5 Qf6 is the best chance. Game 18479 (ongoing) is perhaps the most that black can hope for - for some people not much fun but for latvian fans survival is a triumph!
Thibault de Vassal (2008-08-16 12:29:32)
Questions to Xavier Pichelin
Xavier Pichelin is 1st FICGS chess champion after beating IM Gino Figlio in the first candidates final, he accepted to talk about his match, the tournament, his views around correspondence chess, chess engines and so on... The most important part may be he'll defend his title against the winner of the 2nd candidates final :)
Unfortunately, the complete interview is in french only as he doesn't speak english, but if someone finds a good translator (if possible better than Babelfish), he may post it in this thread. Thanks !
- Bonjour Xavier et tout d'abord félicitations pour ta victoire dans le match
qui t'opposait au MI (ICCF) Gino Figlio [Pérou] dans la finale des candidats. Tu
devais éviter à tout prix la nulle dans toutes les parties, finalement les noirs
t'ont porté chance, comment expliques-tu ce résultat ?
Xavier : Bonjour, merci pour les félicitations.
C'est vrai qu'en cas de nulles pour toutes les parties, le règlement indique Figlio Vainqueur en cas d'égalité avec victoire(s) et défaite(s) je remporte le match. Donc il fallait que je prenne des risques en attaquant et c'est avec les noirs que je l'ai fait car je pensais que Gino, dans ces parties, attendrait sans prendre de risques pour assurer les nulles.
- Peux-tu nous décrire la manière dont tu as abordé ce match contre Gino et
son déroulement au fur et à mesure des différentes phases du jeu ?
X : C'est assez simple, dans ce match je n'étais pas du tout favori car
avec plus de 200 points ELO FICGS en ma défaveur, et Gino titré Maître
International avec plus de 2480 point ELO ICCF, je pensais que je n'allais pas
résister sur 8 parties simultanées car sur une partie tout est possible mais
sur 8 parties... c'était pour moi un grand défi !
Pour le déroulement du jeu j'ai joué la diversité sur mes débuts avec les blancs
4 parties 4 coups différents : 1.e4 1.d4 1.c4 1.Cf3.
Gino a fait de même : 1.e4 1.d4 1.Cf3 1.Cc3.
Ce qui m'a fait douter aussi car 1.Cc3 m'a surpris, je pensais qu'il avait prévu
un début tonitruand et c'est là que je me suis dit qu'il fallait que je prenne
des risques avec les noirs. Au fur et à mesure des différentes phases du jeu
j'ai assuré les nulles des positions équilibrées pour me concacrer a deux
parties avantageuses dont une avec les blancs et une avec les noirs pour au
moins faire la différence dans une partie pour assurer la victoire.
Et en fin de compte c'est 3 victoires qui me reviennent, ce qui me paraissait
impossible étant donnée la qualité du jeu de Gino joué sur ce site pour arriver
à la finale des candidats du championnat.
- Tu as réalisé pendant le championnat un parcours sans faute, aucune
défaite à signaler, tu affiches également des statistiques stratosphériques à
78% contre une moyenne elo à près de 2200, quel est ton secret ?
X : Mon secret? Je n'ai pas de secret. Si j'avais un secret je ne le
dévoilerais pas sinon je ne gagnerais plus ! Je pense que j'ai eu un petit peu
de chance car il s'en est fallu de peu que je ne sois pas qualifié au stage 3
(robin-round final) car il y avait 3 joueurs à égalité et j'ai eu l'avantage du
classement du départ de ce tournoi comme l'indique le règlement. Quant à mes
statistiques, c'est aussi grâce aux erreurs de mes adversaires qui m'ont permis
de gagner des parties équilibrées.
- Que penses-tu du système mi-ko, mi-toutes-rondes du championnat FICGS et
de ses départages inédits lors des matchs en 8 parties ? Quelles modifications y
apporterais-tu ?
X : Très bonne question !
Le système mi-ko pour moi est un peu trop rapide car un coup par jour c'est des
heures d'analyses pour exploiter une position compliquée, ce qui est difficile
quand on à plusieurs parties en cours. Surtout quand on travaille.
C'est peut-être aussi grâce à cette cadence que mes adversaires, faute de temps,
ont fait des imprécisions sur certaines postions ou exploité mes erreurs.
Mais cette cadence a un avantage par rapport aux cadences ICCF qui est de 5
jours par coup, c'est que les parties durent 5 fois moins longtemps !
Le départage inédit des matchs en 8 parties est excellent, obliger le favori à
assurer tous les matchs nulles pour gagner ce duel et sinon
d'obtenir une victoire supplémentaire contre le challenger est un mode très bien
pensé. La modification que je pourrais y apporter est peut-être la gestion du
temps qui est rapide pour un système de jeu par serveur.
Peut-être augmenter l'horloge de départ de 15 jours, soit de commencer avec 45
jours contre 30 en ce moment. Et aussi la possibilité des prendre des vacances
uniquement sur le tournoi en cours afin de gérer les autres parties du site.
Par exemple prendre 7 jours de vacances sur un tournoi d'échecs du championnat
et pouvoir jouer un tournoi de Big Chess, de Go ou un autre tournoi
d'échecs pendant ces vacances. Pouvoir choisir une date de début de vacances à
l'avance serait également appréciable.
- Pourquoi t'être investi dans les échecs par correspondance ?
T'apportent-ils d'autres satisfactions par rapport aux échecs classiques et au
blitz ?
X : Je préfère les échecs par correspondance par rapport au temps.
Car les échecs classiques se jouent souvent le week-end, à une heure précise et
souvent en déplacement pour effectuer un tournoi.
L'avantage, pour moi, des échecs par correspondance est que je puisse me
connecter à n'importe quelle heure pour jouer mes coups, ce qui me
permet, par exemple, de faire des repas de famille le week-end et le soir tard
de jouer un coup, ce qui n'est pas possible aux échecs classiques.
- Tu as su ne pas céder à la tentation et te limiter à jouer un nombre très
raisonnable de parties sur le site tout le long du championnat, penses-tu
néanmoins que les échecs par correspondance soient addictifs et à quel point ?
Ont-ils des répercussions sur ta vie de tous les jours ?
X : Oui ! Limiter mon nombre de parties en cours est pour moi essentiel pour
essayer d'avoir des parties de qualité plutôt que de quantité.
Avoir beaucoup de parties en simultanée est quand même une chose très difficile
à gérer !
C'est peut-être la clé de ma victoire contre Figlio, j'ai regardé ses parties en
cours, il en avait pas loin de 90 sur le site de l'ICCF, cela a pu se ressentir
sur son temps d'analyse consacré à nos 8 parties sur FICGS.
Sur la vie de tous les jours les répercussions sont familiales car il est vrai
que je passe plus de temps à analyser les parties et moins temps avec ma
famille, ce qui est assez difficile pour moi.
Mais quand les résultats sont là je ne regrette pas !
- Que penses-tu de la place actuelle des moteurs d'analyse (Rybka, Shredder, Fritz et autres) dans les échecs par correspondance ? Quelles sont pour toi les
qualités complémentaires essentielles du joueur par correspondance, devenu
centaure avec la machine pour jambes ?
X : Les moteurs d'analyses dans les échecs par correspondances sont utilisés par
95% des joueurs...
Maintenant il faut s'adapter et savoir utiliser ces machines à calculer.
Car jouer simplement le meilleur coup de Rybka 3, de Fritz 12 ou Hiarcs 12 sans
réfléchir mentalement mène à la nulle si l'adversaire fait de même ou
possiblement à perdre si l'adversaire se donne la peine de réfléchir en les
utilisant également.
En sachant que lorsqu'on est dans le milieu de partie ces logiciels vous donnent
souvent 4 à 5 coups evalués de manière semblable, et c'est là qu'il faut choisir
le bon coup alors que celui-ci n'est même pas forcément cité par le moteur
d'analyse...
- Tu joues désormais au Big Chess sur le site, curiosité ou intérêt ? Que
penses-tu de cette version étrange des échecs ?
X : Par curiosité et par amusement et je pense que Rybka 3 ne joue pas encore au
Big Chess !
Cette version est quasiment inédite je ne connaissais pas cette forme de jeu
d'échecs auparavant donc celui qui a inventé ce jeu a très bien fait !
A propos c'est moi qui vous pose une question sur le Big chess... Y a t-il
possiblité de roquer avec ce jeu si oui comment? (NDLR : Non, il est impossible
de roquer au Big Chess)
- Et enfin la question que tout le monde se pose, particulièrement François et
Wolfgang qui disputent la deuxième finale des candidats, penses-tu pouvoir
défendre ton titre l'an prochain ? :)
X : Bien sûr ! Je défendrai le titre ! J'aimerais si possible savoir la date et
la cadence du match. Et je souhaite à François et Wolfgang une belle finale !
Je dois faire honneur à cette compétition qui est bien organisée !
- Le match devrait pouvoir débuter durant la première semaine de janvier 2009, la cadence sera à nouveau de 30 jours et 1 jour supplémentaire par coup.
Merci pour tes réponses, et encore bravo pour cette belle performance !
X : Merci ! Et à bientôt ! Bonne continuation à tous et bonnes parties !
Benjamin Block (2008-08-18 08:52:18)
Try to translate!
I think it is something like that?
Hello Xavier and first congratulations on your victory in the match which t'opposait the MI (ICCF) Gino Figlio [Peru] in the final candidates. You should avoid at all costs void in all parties, finally brought blacks t'ont chance, how do you explain this result?
X
avier: Hello, thank you for the congratulations. It is true that in case of zero for all parties, the regulation states Figlio winner in the event of a tie with victory (s) and defeat (s) I won the match. So I had to take risks in attacking and it is with blacks that I did it because I thought Gino, in these parts, expected without taking risks to ensure the void.
-- Can you tell us about how you approached this match against Gino and his conduct as different phases of the game?
X: It's pretty simple, in this match I was not at all favorite because with more than 200 ELO points FICGS to my disadvantage, and Gino titled Master International, with more than 2480 ELO ICCF point, I thought I n ' not resist going on 8 simultaneous games as a part everything is possible but on 8 parts ... it was for me a great challenge! In the course of the game I played diversity in my beginnings with white 4 parts 4 different strokes: 1.e4 1.d4 1.c4 1.Cf3. Gino did the same: 1.e4 1.d4 1.Cf3 1.Cc3. What made me doubt also because 1.Cc3 surprised me, I thought he had planned an early tonitruand and this is where I said that I should take risks with blacks. As the different phases of the game I assured the zero positions balanced for me concacrer deal has two parts, one with blanks and one with the black for at least make a difference in part to ensure victory. And ultimately it 3 victories me back, which seemed impossible given the quality of the game Gino played on this site to reach the final of the championship candidates.
-- You have made during a championship course without fault, no losses to report, you also posters statistics stratospheric to 78% against an average elo to about 2200, what's your secret?
X: My secret? I have no secret. If I had a secret I do not dévoilerais if I do win more! I think I got a little lucky because he is required by little I am not qualified to stage 3 (round-robin final) because there were 3 players equally and I had l 'advantage classifying the departure of this tournament as indicated by the regulation. As for my statistics, it is also thanks to the errors of my opponents who allowed me to win parts in balance.
-- What do you think the system mid-ko, semi-all-round championship FICGS and its new départages in matches in 8 parties? What changes would it be?
X: Very good question! The system mid-ko for me is a little too fast since a coup by day is overtime analyses to operate a complicated position, which is difficult when several parties in progress. Especially when you work. It is perhaps also through this pace that my opponents lack of time, made some uncertainty regarding postions or exploited my mistakes. But the pace has an advantage over the cadences ICCF which is 5 days a coup is that the parties had to 5 times less time! The départage new games to 8 parts is excellent, forcing the favorite to ensure all matches to nil win this duel and otherwise obtain an additional victory against the challenger is a very well thought out. The amendment that I could make is perhaps time management which is fast for a game system per server. Perhaps increase the clock starting 15 days, starting with 45 against 30 days at this time. And also the possibility of taking a vacation only on the tournament underway to manage other parts of the site. For example, take 7 days vacation on a chess tournament championship and be able to play a tournament Big Chess, Go or another chess tournament during the holidays. Being able to choose a start date of holidays in advance would also be appreciated.
-- Why t'être invested in correspondence chess? T'apportent there are other rewards compared to traditional chess and blitz?
X: I prefer chess match over time. For the classical chess is often play the weekend at a specific time and often on the move to make a tournament. The advantage for me, correspondence chess is that I can connect at any time to play my shots, which allows me, for example, making family meals on weekends and late at night to play a coup, which is not possible chess classics.
-- You knew not to succumb to the temptation and you only play a very reasonable number of parties on the site throughout the championship, do you think nevertheless that the correspondence chess are addictive and at what point? Did they affect your everyday life?
X: Yes! Limiting my number of games in progress is essential for me to try to have parts of quality rather than quantity. Have a lot of parts simultaneously is still something very difficult to manage! This is perhaps the key to my victory against Figlio, I watched its games in progress, it had nearly 90 on the site of the ICCF, it has been felt on his time devoted to analysis our parties on FICGS 8. On the everyday life impacts are family because it is true that I spend more time to analyze the parts and less time with my family, which is quite difficult for me. But when the results are there I do not regret!
-- What do you think about the current position of engines for analysis (Rybka, Shredder, Fritz and others) in correspondence chess? What are the qualities you complementary core player by correspondence, now centaur with the machine for legs?
X: The engines of analyses in chess matches are used by 95% of players ... Now we must adapt and learn to use these machines to calculate. Car simply play the best shot of Rybka 3, Fritz 12 or Hiarcs 12 mentally without thinking leads to zero if the opponent does the same or possibly lose if the opponent gives himself the trouble to consider using them as well. Knowing that when you're in the middle part of these programs give you often 4 to 5 strokes assessed similarly, and that is that we must choose the right time when it is not even necessarily cited by the analysis engine ...
-- You get the Big Chess now on the site, curiosity or interest? What do you think of this strange version of chess?
X: For curiosity and fun and I think Rybka 3 is not yet the Big Chess! This version is almost unprecedented I did not know this form of chess before therefore the one who invented this game was very well done! About I'm the one who asks you a question on the Big chess ... Is there possibility of castle with this game if so, how? (Editor's note: No, it is impossible to castle the Big Chess)
-- And finally the question that everyone arises, especially Francis and Wolfgang disputing that the second final candidates, think you can defend your title next year? :)
X: of course! I will defend the title! I would like if possible to know the timing and pace of the match. And I wish Francis and Wolfgang a beautiful final! I must honor in this competition which is well organized!
-- The match should be able to start during the first week of January 2009, the pace will again 30 days and 1 additional day by coup. Thank you for your answers, and even congratulations for this excellent performance!
X: Thank you! And see you! Bonne continuation to all and good parties!
Andrew Stephenson (2008-08-18 16:06:16)
translation
I will have a go off the top of my head at giving a sense of the interview in english (I dont know the phrase tonitruand but I am guessing it means dynamic!)?:
Hi Xavier and first of all congratulations on your success in the candidates final match against IM (ICCF) Gino Figlio [Peru]
You had to avoid drawing all the games and finally you succeded with the black pieces. How did that happen?
Xavier: Hi thank you. Its true that if all the games had been drawn then under the rules Figlio would have won whereas if the match was drawn but with a win and loss I would win. Because of this I had to take risks and attack. It was with Black that I did this because I thought that Gino would play safely to be sure of a draw.
- Tell us how you approched the match and how the different phases of the game went
x: Its quite simple, I was not the favorite I have 200 ELO less on FICGS and Gino is an IM on ICCF with a 2480 rating. I did not think I could survive 8 games at once - in a single game anything is possible but 8 games .... it was a big challenge for me! In the openings I chose 4 different moves 1 e4 1 d4 1 c4 1 Nf3 Gino chose 1 e4 1 d4 1 c4 1 Nc3 I was surpised by 1 Nc3 because I was expecting dynamic openings and it was then that I decided I must take some risks with black. I kept most of the games balanced with a draw in hand and concentrated on 2 games 1 white and 1 black to get a result. In the end I got 3 wins which seemed an impossibility given the quality of the games Gino had played on this site to reach the final.
- you have not lost any games in the championship and you have fantastic statistics 78% against an average elo of about 2200. What is your secret?
x: My secret? I havent any secret and if I did I would not say because I would not win anymore! I think I have been a bit lucky because in the the Round Robin final there were 3 of us on the same score and I went through under the rules because of my rating. As for my statistics I was helped by mistakes by opponents who allowed me to win some drawn games.
- What do you think of the system for the FICGS championship (round robin and knock out matches)and what changes would you make?
x: Very good question. The matches are a bit too fast for me - 1 day per move when there are hours of analysis needed to exploit a complicated position its difficult when you have several games running Particularly if you are working. Perhaps that is why my opponents have made errors or failed to exploit my mistakes.
But this time limit has an advantage over ICCF where it is 5 days per move the games here are 5 times quicker! Having 8 game matches is an excellent idea and obliging the favorite to draw all the games and the challenger to get a at least 1 victory is very well thought out. The change that I would suggest is to have 15 days extra starting time that is 45 days at the start instead of 30 and also the possibilty to take holidays for tournaments for example take 7 days for championship games and to be able to play big chess go or another chess tournament during the holiday. To be able to choose the start of a holiday in advance would also be good.
- Why do you like cc and how does it compare to blitz and normal chess?
x: I prefer cc because of the time factor. Classical chess is often played at the week end at a fixed time and you have to travel to the tournament. The advantage for me at cc is that I can connect at any time to play a move which allows me for example to have meals with the family at the weekend. Late night moves for example are not possible at classical chess.
- You limited the number of your games on the site to a reasonable amount throughout the championship. Do you think nonetheless that cc is addictive? Does it affect your daily life?
x: Yes! Limiting the number of my games is essential to try to have games of quality not quantity. Having a lot of games going at the same time is something very difficult to handle. It is perhaps the key to my victory against Figlio - I looked at his games - he had not less than 80 games going on at ICCF this must have affected the amount of time he could spend analysing his 8 games at FICGS. The effects on daily life are felt by the family because the reality is if I spend more time analysing the games I spend less time with the family. Thats difficult for me. But when the results come I dont regret it!
- What do you think of the role of chess engines (Rybka Fritz etc)in cc. What are for you the important skills of a cc player - to supplement the machine?
x: Chess engines are used in cc by 95% of players. You have to adapt yourself and know how to use the engines. To play just the best move of Rybka 3 Fritz 12 or Hiracs 12 without thinking leads to a draw if your opponent does the same or to a loss if your opponent is thinking. You have to choose bewteen 4 or 5 moves with a similer evaluation from the engine during a game and sometimes the best move is not among these.
- You play Big chess. Interest or curiosity? What do you think of this strange version of chess?
X : Curiosity and amusement and I think Rrybka 3 cannot yet play Big Chess! This version is new and I did not know it and the inventor has done a good job! By the way I would like to ask is it possible to castle at Big Chess?
[No its not possible]
- Finally the question that everyone is asking particularly Francois and Wolfgang who are contesting the 2nd candidates final. Do think you will be able to defend your title next year? :)
x: Definitely I will defend the title I would like to know if possible the date and time limits for the match. I wish Francois and Wolfgang a great match! I would also like to express my appreciation for this tournament which has been well organised!
- the match should start in the first week in January next year the time limit will be 30 days plus 1 day per move. Thank you for your answers and once again congratulations on a great performance.
x: Thank you. Cheers. Best wishes to everyone and good games!
Benjamin Block (2008-08-30 15:07:48)
How good is the program vs the man?
I want more test game in corr man vs computer. To know how high elo the computer have? It was a long time ago the Hydra played vs Nickel i want to see Rybka vs GM Nickel or some one other.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-09-02 15:14:21)
How good is the program vs the man?
True, I don't know about any recent experience like Hydra-Nickel... We may organize something like that with Rybka 3.0 and why not a strong Go engine too, any idea (rules, time control and so on) ?
Benjamin Block (2008-09-02 18:58:21)
organize?
On this site? Yes it would be funny.
I think it will be hard to ask the rybka team?? Have they time? But if some one that we trust can use the computer 30+1 to don´t get to much electricity. How are inveted to play? The openingsbook Random?
Thibault de Vassal (2008-09-05 19:17:59)
Rybka playing correspondence chess
We may try anyway... I'll post something in the Rybka forum soon.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-09-09 18:27:21)
Kramnik vs. Rybka / Zhukov
Posted by Larry Kaufman in Rybka forum : "According to GM Roman Dzindzichashvili quoting GM Sosonko who says he was present, a two game minimatch was held recently between former World Champion Vladimir Kramnik and Russian Chess Federation President Alexander Zhukov, at a serious time limit, with the following condition: Every fourth move, Zhukov was allowed to consult with Rybka for three minutes."
The complete discussion :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=7270
Around cheating in OTB chess, interesting...
Thibault de Vassal (2008-09-09 23:39:07)
Rybka forum
You may support or discuss the idea of a correspondence chess match between Rybka and a centaur (human + engines) here :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=7307
Thibault de Vassal (2008-09-12 14:39:49)
Rybka 3.0 about 2300 at FICGS ?
According to Larry Kaufman from Rybka team in the discussion linked above :
"If we assume that both sides have the same opening book, then I think two things are fairly safe to say:
1. A good human chessplayer (or even a bad one with good centaur skills) + same Rybka will win a long match from unassisted Rybka.
2. In any individual game, the chance of a draw is fairly high. (...) I mean more than half the games, but not way more. The actual draw percentage depends very heavily on the opening book used."
I agree with that, so I assume that Rybka 3.0 thinking at least 24 hours per move would have a correspondence chess rating of about 2300 at FICGS.
Any opinion ?
Wayne Lowrance (2008-09-13 00:47:03)
Rybka 2300 @ FICGS
That is interesting Tribault. Do you mean the program running unassisted, no player help, Rybka choose own book moves ?
If that is your basis then I say no Way Rybka on FICGS get this rating. There are very many sharp Centaurs playing here. With excellent tuned books. That is the main thing. CC games are won/lost on opening book.
I am of the opinion that centaur + program is too strong for Program itself. Results on ICC have demonstrated that.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2008-09-13 13:45:25)
Correction
Hi Wayne, yes I mean Rybka unassisted and playing with the best book possible. But this assumption of rating was based on games played with a ~2450-2500 centaur... But in my opinion, Rybka would not outplay a centaur rated 2200 as well, so her rating may be closer to 2200-2250.
Finally, maybe the most interesting part would be a match between Rybka 3.0 and a correspondence chess player rated 1900 :)
Benjamin Block (2008-09-13 14:01:21)
Rybka vs 1900 man.
Rybka will win that game if the player not are under rankad.
But what about 2100 vs computer?
Benjamin Block (2008-09-15 16:32:01)
Asked Rybka!
Why they not wanted in corr. The answer was. "Becase the man will also use rybka".
Andrew Stephenson (2008-10-05 23:03:12)
The Many Faces of Go
...is the name of the program that just won the Go section in the Beijing International Computer Games Association tournament. It won all 12 games which included beating the 2nd place program MoGo. In the 9 x 9 Go competition Many Faces also triumphed winning 15 out of 18 games but was beaten by MoGo who took 3rd after a playoff with the program Leela. the chess of course was won by Rybka
Thibault de Vassal (2008-10-06 18:03:43)
Rybka is World Computer Chess Champion
No surprise, Rybka wins the 16th World Computer Chess Championship (2008)... Strangely, Rybka was running on the most powerful hardware, a 40-core system, in comparison Mobile Chess was running on a Nokia cell phone, so results are to be compared. Anyway, good result for Hiarcs, and a (very) bad tournament for Shredder.
The tournament results :
Rybka 8.0 / 9
Hiarcs 7.0 / 9
Junior 6.0 / 9
ClusterToga 5.5 / 9
Shredder 4.5 / 9
Falcon 4.0 / 9
Jonny Beijing 4.0 / 9
Deep Sjeng 3.5 / 9
The Baron 2.5 / 9
Mobile Chess 0.0 / 9
Sebastian Boehme (2008-10-06 19:39:00)
Sort of a hierarchy here
Well it is quite simple, the best engine on best hardware. Anyway good that at least Junior and Cluster Toga managed to get a draw from Rybka.
Too bad Hiarcs played such a bad opening, or there had also been a chance for maybe a draw.
Anyway congrats again to Rybka team for this win!
Harvey Williamson (2008-10-24 10:17:11)
The Games and Photos
Can be found here http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1677
Hardware was indeed an issue ranging from Rybka on 40 cores, Hiarcs on 8 and the Mobile phone!
Ben Milton (2008-11-05 15:45:54)
new book
Thank you for the helpful reply, however your method adds new games to an already existing book (e.g. rybka 3.ctg). What i was looking for is to make a new opening book completely based on these games. Is that possible?
Ben Milton (2008-11-22 18:13:24)
...
Also is there a way for me to increase my chess rating? since i am a centaur player using Rybka 3, fritz, zappa, with strong opening books such as perfect 15 (tuned) and at this rating many of my opponents are not even using engines and it the games are not challenging. Regards
Thibault de Vassal (2008-12-06 15:21:14)
Rybka 4, Fritz 12, Hiarcs 13 & future...
What about a small point on chess engines ?
A few months ago, it was quite predictable to me that Chessbase engines (well, Rybka 3 actually also is a Chessbase engine now) like Fritz, Shredder & Hiarcs were dedicated to catch Rybka in the computer chess rating lists.
The current CEGT 40/20 (AMD 4200+) rating list shows :
Rybka 3 x64 4CPU 3202
Rybka 2.3.2a x64 4CPU 3079
Deep Fritz 11 4CPU 3031
Zappa Mexico II x64 4CPU 3022
Shredder WM Edition Bonn 4CPU 3011
Naum 3.1 x64 4CPU 3011
Hiarcs 12 MP 4CPU 2968
In other words, Rybka 3 always has a quite large advance, but all other ones filled the major part of the gap with Rybka 2.3.2, including free chess engines. What future for chess engines now ? What kind of improvement can we expect from Rybka 4, Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Hiarcs 13 and co. ?
IMO one future version in theory may reach 3600 or more in such rating lists (which probably doesn't mean anything compared to the human rating list) but the interest of programmers may now decrease in this race where efforts/money can be compared to the grandmasters involvement to enter the elo top 100... What do you think ?
Andrew Stephenson (2008-12-06 21:51:23)
Reaching a peak
My gut feeling is that rating improvements will tail off and we will not see any program crack 3400. I dont know the sales figures but looking for example at New In chess analysis by Carlsen he seems to use only Rybka and perhaps this program is becoming completely dominant among GM's. Perhaps the biggest impact will be hardware improvements allowing faster deeper analysis. This will mean fewer points missed and quicker conclusions as the time needed for the program to dig into the position shortens. You can still see examples of theoretical analysis in recent New in Chess Year books where misjudgements have been made because they needed to keep the program running a bit longer to see the evaluation flip but I think this will decrease ........
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2008-12-16 06:38:20)
Reply to Monsieur De Vassal
"Anyway, I think it is admitted now that we have reached the point where brute force can't fight anymore against knowledge, actually the processor speed is probably becoming less and less important."
I disagree as the Rybka engine is being used in a 40 core cluster for their latest tournaments. It is not the brute force approach but hardware is progressing faster than software so developers must maybe redesign their products to be able to use the full potential of the hardware advantages(in this example parallelization).
Thibault de Vassal (2008-12-16 11:17:29)
40 cores
That's true, we'll have some surprises yet in this area. But the more chess knowledge, the less impact the processor's speed, I'm not sure that the score of Rybka was so impressive because of her hardware. But I agree that "admitted" was a bit strong :)
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2008-12-16 20:54:35)
Brute force
Not in the primitive bean counters but engines like Rybka and Zappa, Naum are fast searchers, and they benefit a lot from powerful and multiple cpus.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-12-26 20:26:06)
Pichelin - Utesch
Hi Hannes, as far as I experienced, Xavier is an excellent chess player, beyond Rybka & chess engines, with a very good understanding of the game and very efficient ideas, also in quiet positions. Wolfgang is able to make very deep & accurate analysis in complex or strange positions while playing fastly, really hard to play. Moreover both have a coherent, maybe different, global match strategy.
In my opinion, we may see quite surprising and long games, that could be decided in a way since the opening, I mean psychology could be the key in such a match. The way the pieces will be dealt may show some things.
50 / 50 :)
Thibault de Vassal (2008-12-31 00:37:01)
One player, one strategy...
I suppose everyone has a personal idea on this, it all depends on the time you want to spend on each move. The very best players obviously use Rybka 3, recent databases and may search games played by their opponents (you may use the "Search games" option) to avoid the openings they master.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-01-04 06:45:28)
Rybka Chess Forum
What happened to it > my booked marked url takes me to some lady and a bunch of options, nothing to do with the forum, anyone else have this problem
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-04 13:49:57)
Rybka forum
Hi Wayne,
Maybe a temporarily problem, it works fine here :
http://rybkaforum.net
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-04 14:14:38)
Rybka 4
Vasik Rajlich wrote a few comments on what can be expected from the Rybka engine/team in 2009 :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=9199
Three engine releases are planned in 2009:
* Rybka 3+ - Rybka 3 playing strength, with bugfixes and cosmetic improvements, for Rybka 3 customers
* Pocket Rybka 3 - published by Convekta/ChessOK, packaged with their Pocket Champion interface, conforms to S. Tsukrov's Pocket-UCI protocol
* Rybka 4 - better search, better eval, new analysis features
"Our tournament goal for 2009 is to win a top freestyle event in 100% automated mode. (...)"
Very interesting, a new challenge for Eros :)
Wayne Lowrance (2009-01-04 19:13:20)
Rybka Chess Forum
Ah, works fine this morning Thibault, thank you. I dunno why/what happened. I tried over & over with no luck. B4n
Wayne
Ben Milton (2009-01-05 16:00:41)
CHALLENGE!!!
I hereby challenge all to 2 games one as black and one as white, to whoever believes they can beat Rybka 3 using tuned Perfect 15 book and depth 23 after opening. This is ofcourse to win my E-points. Any one interested at all?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-05 16:34:12)
Rybka 3 alone ?
You mean Rybka 3 playing by itself ? Could be a very interesting test match...
Wayne Lowrance (2009-01-05 18:06:24)
Rybka 4 Fritz 12, Hiarcs 13 & future
It is my thought that Vas is running close to empty on improvements from Rybka 3 to Rybka 4. Rybka 3 was a huge, huge improvment.Other programmers are getting closer, specifically Naum.
I sorta think Vas is looking a ways in the future when cluster comps are taking hold.
Before Rybka 3 release there was a lot of excitement about Monte Carlo, but Rybka 3 Monte Carlo is not effective overall, It is just a novelity as far as my evaluation is concerned. Maybe too, like cluster MC will have a place.
Correspondence chess players sh ould be delighted with Rybka three. A few minor improvements can be made, but wont improve ELO much, such as deep evaluation pv listing. Right no for CC player the current PV thing is crazy.
Well nice topic
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-05 18:34:24)
Depth 23
It would have no sense to propose such a challenge. No, only Rybka moves (played by Ben) will be limited to depth 23.
I think I would accept the challenge (for at least 100 Epoints) if the full analysis by Rybka is posted after the end of the game :)
Marc Lacrosse (2009-01-05 23:17:16)
First flaw is in the book
There are many published lines crushing perfect15.
I am not sure that sedat already corrected all the known ones for the coming perfect16.
Either you publish your ctg at the beginning of the games or you cannot affirm that you run a "modified" perfect15 without providing proofs that you are not playing yourself during the opening phase
So i fear it's a flawed challenge
Apart from this I suppose that any player among top-50 here is ready to play against a pure R3. If we were not ready to accept this, then this would mean that correspondence chess has come to its end.
Marc
i must admit that in case your opponent plays postman chess with his engines, times have become tougher for those who try to demonstrate something, and much tougher since rybka 3 appeared. But so far there are still players who keep achieving 70% against opponents who probably all use top engines ...
Don Groves (2009-01-06 05:18:20)
I don't understand why a challenge...
Why don't you simply enter the Gold or Silver waiting list and play? The methods you propose are entirely legal here and don't require advance notification.
It would be interesting to see Rybka's analysis published as Thibault suggested but that goes for any worthy game played here.
Ben Milton (2009-01-06 11:08:51)
Question
Would someone please tell how to be a strong centaur player? I have been playing online computer assisted chess for 2 years now and still have not learned how to be stronger than rybka 3 by itslef. I use Fritz11 GUI. Any reccommendations? would be appreciated
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-06 14:14:28)
How to beat Rybka 3 ?
Hi Ben, the main -enormous- advantage you have over Rybka 3 is of course that you know by advance what she may play at least in "some" cases. At correspondence chess, you have to create a trap according to the horizon's effet (don't remember if this is the correct term) or analysis depth. Well, it may represent several weeks of analysis though, to understand such engine's weaknesses, then to incitate her to follow you in a good line, knowing the book she uses.
Playing against Rybka 3 in a freestyle chess tournament will be even harder, only someone who perfectly knows the engine & has a very good understanding of the game may hope to have a good score (over 60%) against the engine IMO.
Finally a good centaur would have quite good chances to win this match in my opinion.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-08 12:23:20)
No ratings...
Just an idea, this challenge could be played here in this forum, move after move, with the conditions mentioned above (& Rybka 3 analysis in real time, no need to hide it after all). 2 unrated games, 40 days + 40 days / 10 moves. What do you think ?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-09 08:44:35)
Why ?
The purpose is only to show if Rybka 3 can be or not a strong correspondence chess player already, nothing more. Ben has no interest to try to cheat and it would be a big work to change the full Rybka analysis (ie. 5 first lines for each move) that would be copy-pasted here.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-15 12:34:27)
Engines vs. Human
Hi Normajean,
1. At standard time controls, I think Rybka 3 can beat the best GM, there is just no time enough for a human to avoid a single error. But grandmasters probably still have a better vision of the game at least in calm positions. At correspondence time controls, no one can say it but I feel a good GM could rivalize yet with the best engines. This is unlikely to change before a while IMO.
2. The best anti-human engine at any time control is probably Rybka 3, but there will be concurrence soon.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-01-16 05:22:27)
Engines & deep analysis
I agree with Thibault, in blitz or standard time controls Rybka and 2 or 3 others have no pier with human top gm's. But in correspondence time, I think the top GM's will certainly hold their own, or more
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-18 18:20:34)
SSDF rating list
Current SSDF ratings for the best chess engines running on 2GB Q6600 2.4 GHz are :
Deep Rybka 3 x64 - 3226
Deep Fritz 11 - 3086
Zappa Mexico II x64 - 3064
Naum 3.1 x64 - 3046
Deep Shredder 11 - 3043
Deep Hiarcs 12 x64 - 3033
Hiarcs 11.2 MP - 3008
Deep Junior 10.1 - 2981
By the way, how long before a new Deep Junior version...
Normajean Yates (2009-01-19 15:38:51)
to sophie [contd]..
Sophie wrote: 'the halloween gambit refused is a dull game.'
Programs cannot understand the concept 'dull' and 'interesting'.
(actually they *can* very roughly, but then they cannot distinguish efficiently between 'interesting' and 'unsound'. Something like: run the position on rybka3 'dynamic'; then cross-check the move with the main rybka3 )
They can understand 'drawish'.
Objectively of couse, either the initial pos is a win for white, or a win for black, or a draw. We simply do not know...
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-26 00:49:52)
Rybka vs. Fritz 9
I suppose this is normal, as you probably use Rybka 3 (looks like its number of nodes per second doesn't mean anything btw). These tests have been made with Fritz 9, right ?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-26 20:07:55)
Hiarcs vs. Rybka
Yeah, the same... the number of nodes is really low with Hiarcs. Anyway, the engine must be the same one than in the tests (so Fritz 9) to be significant.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-27 16:40:31)
We need more Big Chess players !
Come on, let Rybka & other chess engines work in your 8x8 games & play Big Chess with us, that's the real life, amazing chess & the only way to see such incredible moves :)
http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=viewer&game=24656&move=85
Waiting lists > Big Chess standard tournaments !
Waiting for strong players in Big Chess standard M tourney.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-28 21:32:48)
NPS, Crafty
True, true... and the discussion at Talkchess is very interesting too. BTW I did not check the code & results of Crafty for a while but I'm curious to know if there has been significant improvements since the start of the Rybka era.
Normajean Yates (2009-01-29 14:59:36)
re: rybka era v open-source
I've not been keeping in touch with post-2002 developments in chess programming [that is, the literature - I have no energy to try to reverse-engineer closed code, and my skills in that are 15-years out-of-date and out of touch :(]
- Also, I think there are fewer and fewer of comparatively strong enough open-source engines now :(
Which is the strongest *open-souce* engine now, and how does it compare to even rybkas of the 3.1.x generation? I do not know [frankly, since 2002 I am too busy with literature and political activity; even though it looks like I am playing chess all the time ;)]
But I'd be interested in knowing and grateful to everyone who posts info this and related questions...
The questions are of the form of comparative strengths of stongest post-2005 open-source engines versus rybka; and *published* new ideas in chess programming which have been implemented and have been shown to improve engine strength.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2009-01-31 09:19:05)
Mr Yates
Crafty current version is 22.10 and is still developing. Right now Dr. Hyatt is working in improving the paralellization. More info of the engine is found at computer chess forum as the author is a regular poster there.
Some people say that Rybka is a product of open source of Fruit, but that is another debate. Right now there are good open sources engines mainly glaurung, stockfish (glaurung derivative) there are also interesting projects with toga derivatives, cyclone, grapefruit, mad prune, etc.
Again I refer to an interesting discussion in talkchess about the advances in the past 10 years, software or hardware, Dr Hyatt explains that hardware development has been more important than new methods in search or evaluations of chess engines.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-02-03 18:59:13)
octal vs single core in CC
I am using a Octal computer now for perhaps 6 months, before that a very old single core slow comp. came across a inheritance so I splurged. Prior to purchasing for this octal I had many talks with the experienced folks on the "Rybka forum". I inquired would an octal computer provide better play in CC. The typical response was the main advantage is the octal is faster, but my older slower comp given little more time would play close to identical, (but not 100 % identical).
I have found this to be the case. I have compared single core with octal core using my octal computer and find the single core lagged the octal on average only one ply, but got the same answers on the whole.
I like my MacPro (2.8 gihz) very much don't get me wrong but the most important chess playing feature is the program.
I thought some of you would be interested in my little tidbit.......
Wayne
Don Groves (2009-02-04 23:59:42)
Not easy to compare
Chess engines probably use almost exclusively integer operations rather than floating point, so direct comparison is difficult. But the parallel use of 1.6 million processors would make an amazing difference for properly coded engines!
Currently, Rybka only uses up to 4K processors but that's an easy change to make. Imagine being able to simultaneously compute the best few lines to a depth of 25 ply in a minute or so...
Normajean Yates (2009-02-05 04:28:40)
anyone here uses a 4K processor machine?
for playing here I mean - they might well drudge away on a 4K-processor machine in the office [or if I google something, how many processors - not necessarily all cpu - am I accessing?] - but do they pull enough weight to run rybka on it all the time?
Or worse still ( ;), actually *own* one ? No, access is better: 'if it's broke it ain't mine' - no maintenance hassles :)
Power without responsiblity..
from the 1980s BBC-TV 'yes. minister' series:
"Responsiblity without power; historically the prerogative of the eunuch" ;)
Thibault de Vassal (2009-03-15 18:17:32)
Anand vs. Computer
I don't remember Anand playing a match against a computer like Deep Blue, Deep Fritz, Junior, Rybka & so on... But it is quite possible to find a few games like Anand vs. Fritz 3, 4 or other old programs in chess databases IMO.
Anyway, it is quite hard for me to answer your question as I still think the world is divided into 2 categories, Garry Kasparov and those who dig :) (The Good, The Bad & The Ugly, of course) .. More seriously, Anand is probably one of these 4 or 5 best players of all times, but who may be quite irregular (or just human), unlike Kasparov. Tal was another genius, maybe more a gambler, but none (Topalov, Anand, Kramnik...) ever reached the level of Garry Kasparov in my opinion.
I'm not sure Anand will be interested in losing to a chess computer, particularly as even Fritz is getting stronger & stronger.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-03-20 17:22:38)
Best chess forums
Hello Nadia.
Not so easy to find your first post ;)
Maybe try these ones :
http://ancients.correspondencechess.com
http://www.talkchess.com
http://www.chessexchange.com
http://www.rybkaforum.net
http://www.chess.com
http://www.chessforums.org
.. or just Google chess forums ;)
Thibault de Vassal (2009-05-18 21:43:40)
Rybka 3 wins the 17th WCCC
Rybka 3 is still the king of computer chess, she just won the 17th WCCC tournament on an Intel Xeon W5580 / 3.2GHz x 8 with 8 points ahead of Junior, Deep Sjeng & Shredder (6.5 points).. Hiarcs finished the tournament with 6 points.
That's a pity, Fritz did not participate, once more.
Marc Lacrosse (2009-06-19 23:24:59)
FICGS commented on rybkachess
Quite a few comments regarding FICGS and correspondence chess opening preparation in this recent thread on rybkachess forum :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=165142;msg=ReplyPost
Your opinion ?
Marc
Thibault de Vassal (2009-06-22 16:41:00)
Discussion at Rybkachess
That's an interesting discussion... Once more, the confusion reigns between Freestyle chess (commonly played at classical & blitz time controls) and Correspondence Chess, particularly for centaur players who did not experience correspondence chess at a 2500+ level.
IMO (in brief) on several points :
1) All these made-for-engines books have no other interest than to "manipulate" chess engines & other made-for-engines books, actually this has almost nothing to do with correspondence chess (where they are completely useless at a high level, let's say 2300+) or even chess.
2) Many players do not realize the multitude of factors that appear to be more important that the basic strength of centaurs once the correspondence chess 2400 mark is reached and that still increases at 2500 and 2600... The higher the level, the more "opening books" depend on the recent games played by the opponent (and his level), the number of current games played, the score to reach in 8 games matches, the importance of rating, the goal in life, even the month/season for a few players and many other things according to the persons... Actually these "openings books" just live the time to use it one time, so a better term is preparation, actually opening books do not exist anymore in correspondence chess at a very high level, at most it may be useful against weaker players.
3) The previous point is enough to explain the rating changes of most 2400+ players ! In example...
- GM Farit Balabaev is a very experienced player who constantly has(had) more than 100 running correspondence chess games at several places for years, he's also a fast player, it is quite logical to me that he looks for quiet games and fast draws (or lose sometimes to very strong players who want to win more)
- Wolfgang Utesch, FICGS WCH finalist, like many players at one time in their life, decided that other things were more important and that correspondence chess was too time consuming, particularly once the 2500 mark has been reached...
- Eros Riccio obviously decided to win every correspondence chess competition at FICGS while playing a high number of games at several places AFTER having topped the FICGS rating list with the highest rating so far (which he did), so it is natural to look for a few quick draws in matches if 8 draws mean a victory for him (and a few rating points lost, that is quite inhuman anyway :))
- Michael Aigner tops most FICGS rating lists by playing only games at 40 days + 40 days / 10 moves time control, which is an enormous performance as obviously the longer the time control, the higher the rate of draws. I do not know how many current games he's playing at ICCF or IECG and other organisations but I suspect he plays a quite reasonable number of games.
- Xavier Pichelin may top the FICGS rating list this year as he's an incredibly dangerous player with White and Black and with a reasonable number of running games.
Many strong players also choose to play some tournaments for "fun" or to experiment openings and may lose some points while their real strength is over 2500 or more... so it is quite hard to make the difference between the real strength and correspondence chess ratings. So many parameters... It is likely that we'll see one day a 12 games match between Eros and Xavier (Michael do not play fast correspondence chess time control, yet I hope), we all wonder what rating could achieve Vasik Rajlich (Rybka's creator) and other very strong freestyle players but it is very hard to predict only by knowing their results in freestyle tournaments. Correspondence chess is a mirror of real life.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-07-23 17:29:16)
Rybka tablebase work qround bug
Thanks to Kullberg of Rybka forum fame. This long known bug has a work around that works. Just set max cpu to N-1, then exit and go back to engine paramaters and reset it to N where of course N is equal to max cpu's of your computer. then exit. That is all there is too it. It works, no one knows why, save Vas who said "it is now clear".
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2009-07-24 12:01:41)
Rybka 4
I did not experience it (I couldn't anyway) but it should be fixed for all multi-core users in Rybka 4 which is planned to be out in a few months, if I remember well.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-09-07 23:52:52)
A Big Mouth on Rybka Forum
Howdy Thibault & all.
There is a poster on the Rybka forum who has sort of a big mouth. He claims that Rybka IA feature is not best for CC games, claims it is too time consuming and at any rate he blubbers and brags that those who use IA are not able to defeat him. I am using my own language here in a jist of the conversation of his.
He further says that he never spends more that a matter of hours cogitating his move using a 3 tear "long game" approach to working his moves. Timers such at 60' 40 moves @ 1st tier etc (don't remember his 2nd tier timer. In any case he claims he can get to depth 40 in mid game situations using a "long game" three tier mode. and finds moves that are superior to IA running a day or more (he doesn't seem to understand that most CC players use IA in a special Centaur way and the Program is a tool.
He gives little respect for 2500 CC rated Centaur players using the feature IA. He beats such players all of the time, he say's with his Rybka usage with his very modest hardware against 2500 players using IA. I am skeptical. I asked where he plays CC (out of courosity) and he will not tell where. a Poster in response to his post believe he plays CC where computers are not allowed, I have no idea in this regard. I told him that I play at FICGS where computers are welcome and a 2500 rating on this server is very high. There are many well known players held in high regard playing at FICGS that would "clean his clock" with him playing as he say's he does.
So what is my point. I am wondering if I can invite this guy to join FICGS and that his lofty rating can be accepted. I shall invite him to Join our SM #11 tourney.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2009-09-08 00:10:04)
A Big Mouth on Rybka Forum
Hi Wayne, does he have any rating (FIDE/IECG/ICCF) ?
I would be curious to see some games by him of course :)
Thibault de Vassal (2009-09-27 01:40:59)
Fritz 12, your opinion
From Chessbase news, Fritz 12 will be out on October 7, 2009 (new opening book by Alex Kure)
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=467
Did anyone lucky test it already ?
What about the interface & engine ? A serious opponent for Rybka 3 ?
William Taylor (2009-09-27 12:14:34)
Fritz 12
I haven't tested it, but I'd be surprised if it was a match for Rybka.
Garvin Gray (2009-09-27 12:55:35)
different design and direction
I thought that the fritz designers had taken the decision a while back to focus more on features for the program rather than just trying to make fritz as strong as possible against other engines.
So I would be surprised if it was as good as rybka in competitions.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-09-28 17:39:42)
Fritz 12 vs. Rybka 3
I'm not sure about that, the Fritz engine evolved quite a lot (probably thanks to Rybka) these last years and the gap was reduced since the first versions of Rybka. We'll see that in a few days.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2009-09-28 22:21:17)
Promotion
The promotion has centered around the new interface(GUI)and the new pemium membership for playchess. About the engine they just said "new stronger engine" but no numbers given.
Seems they emphasize the GUI and Shredder 12 the new human levels. Not as much the engine strenght as they gave up in chasing Rybka. I agree with Garvin I doubt Fritz will be close to Rybka 3
John Smith (2009-09-29 21:23:50)
Human/Centaur
Hi again,
Thank you for replying, therefore a NO_ENGINES flag is not present I better use engines as well as I don't think is meaningful to play vs a human-computer hybrid who probably is rated 1000+ Elo points above me (following the rationale centaur > rybka > SGM > GM > IM > me)
Not 100% what I was looking for but on the other hand this approach has the merit of studying the opening part of the game in great depth as positions can be analyzed to a great extent.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-10-07 16:00:18)
Fritz 12 rating at CEGT
I just discovered the first rating for Fritz 12 in the CEGT 40/20 (2GHz) rating list, 2933 so less than 20 points better than Fritz 11, quite a deception. Naum 4 is still not so far from Rybka 3.
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20SingleVersion/rangliste.html
1 Rybka 3 x64 1CPU 3112 17 17 1142 73.9% 2931 34.1%
2 Rybka 3 w32 1CPU 3053 16 16 1234 68.3% 2919 38.7%
3 Naum 4 w32 1CPU 2988 17 17 831 58.2% 2930 47.9%
4 Naum 4 x64 1CPU 2988 20 20 628 55.6% 2949 48.4%
5 Deep Fritz 11 1CPU 2937 14 14 1248 54.2% 2908 47.5%
6 Fritz 12 2933 19 19 674 48.8% 2941 46.0%
7 Fritz 11 2916 7 7 6292 54.9% 2882 42.3%
8 Shredder WM Edition Bonn 1CPU 2912 13 13 1580 50.7% 2907 41.7%
9 Zappa Mexico II x64 1CPU 2910 15 15 1084 54.7% 2878 45.0%
10 Thinker 5.4Ai x64 1CPU 2902 18 18 762 51.1% 2895 49.5%
Garvin Gray (2009-10-18 14:56:42)
arrived
I have received fritz 12 a couple of days ago. I have not yet played it against Rybka at all, but I do have one question for those who also have it.
How do I open a current database of games that are located on my computer? Seems like a silly question, but I can not seem to work it out.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-10-20 22:14:38)
Shredder 12 vs. Rybka 3
Shredder 12 (the chess engine more than the interface) looks much more promising than Fritz 12, here are the current CEGT rating lists, Naum 4 and Rybka 3 are not so far !
40 / 40 rating list
1 Rybka 3 x64 1CPU 3105 16 16 1293 71.7% 2944 35.0%
2 Rybka 3 w32 1CPU 3053 16 16 1234 68.3% 2919 38.7%
3 Deep Shredder 12 x64 1CPU 3000 27 27 351 55.1% 2964 45.9%
4 Naum 4 w32 1CPU 2988 17 17 831 58.2% 2930 47.9%
5 Naum 4 x64 1CPU 2982 18 18 728 54.2% 2953 48.8%
6 Deep Fritz 11 1CPU 2936 14 14 1298 53.5% 2911 47.3%
7 Fritz 12 2928 18 18 778 47.3% 2947 46.3%
8 Fritz 11 2916 7 7 6292 54.9% 2882 42.3%
9 Zappa Mexico II x64 1CPU 2915 15 15 1134 54.5% 2883 45.1%
10 Shredder WM Edition Bonn 1CPU 2912 13 13 1580 50.7% 2907 41.7%
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20SingleVersion/rangliste.html
40 / 4 rating list
1 Rybka 3.0 x64 4CPU 3238 11 11 3400 80.4% 2993 27.7%
2 Naum 4.0 x64 4CPU 3126 11 11 2400 64.9% 3020 41.7%
3 Deep Shredder 12 x64 4CPU 3105 15 15 1300 65.8% 2991 35.9%
4 Deep Fritz 11 4CPU 3066 10 10 2500 58.3% 3008 44.5%
5 Stockfish 1.4 JA x64 4CPU 3032 11 11 2400 53.0% 3011 38.8%
6 Zappa Mexico II x64 4CPU 3026 8 8 4050 49.6% 3029 40.1%
7 Thinker 5.4D x64 4CPU Inert 3012 11 11 2200 50.3% 3010 39.5%
8 Hiarcs 12.1 4CPU 2998 11 11 2400 49.7% 3001 39.2%
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_4_Ratinglist/40_4_BestVersion/rangliste.html
Congrats to the author of Shredder !
Benjamin Block (2009-10-21 19:33:48)
Still 100 Elo points
Will Rybka 4 not came soon?
John Smith (2009-11-13 02:56:53)
Introduction to Centaur Chess
Hi all,
While I have played allot of chess, so far I only used my computer for an occasional analysis and mostly for the database features.
I am assuming it takes to know engines quite well to become good at advanced/centaur chess, so any advice would be really helpful.
1) Which engines are better at what type of positions? Is Deep Junior best at unclear sacrifices?, Rybka best for positional play?, Schredder best for endgames?
2) Which engines understand different pawn structures better, e.g. which is the best engine to study a stonewall-structure game and which is best for a King's Indian Mar de Plata game?
3) How to interpret the engine value for the position? e.g. if I, say as White, sac a pawn and the evaluation is -0.1, that is less that 1 pawn, does this mean I have enough positional compensation for the pawn?
4) Which engines take long-term weaknesses into their evaluations, even if they can't see anything concrete within their horizon?
5) Which free engines are worth consulting? toga? stockfish? Glaurung? thinker? Which of these are good for complex positions, which for quiet ones?
6) Are there any engines which improve their play during time, that is they learn? e.g. if in a position guiding the engine by hand proves that another move than its preferred one is best, will it be able to spot the move again, if the same position is re-entered?
7) Which is the best interface for analysis?
8) Is there a page with statistics of how each engine performs in every opening?
Thanks!
Thibault de Vassal (2009-11-13 16:44:56)
Centaur chess
Hi John, I'm afraid there's no clear answer to these questions, in my experience it is not possible to classify chess engines so accurately, each position is differently understood by chess engines, and actually is differently not understood, in example many great moves were found in some way "by chance" by engines like Deep Junior... But this is old computer chess already, Junior has not been updated for a while and Rybka is probably best in all parts of the game for a few years (maybe that is to change).
As Michel said, experience is the key IMO.
John Smith (2009-11-13 18:19:12)
thanks for your responses
I see, it is a quite unexplored area.
Have engines advanced really that much though? Surely, there has been progress, but I did an experiment, I annotated some of my games using Fritz6 and Fritz 11. What caught me off guard was the fact that their 1st recommendation was the same everywhere, and in fact, oddly, Fritz 6 converged first to the "correct" reply.
They still sometimes fail to find some critical moves made by positional masters like Karpov or Kramnik. Of course they have also found many moves of their own (Bxh2!? vs Kasparov) which were not even considered by human masters.
Since my initial questions are probably on too abstract grounds, I'd like to ask a purchase question. I will buy Rybka soonish, however I was wondering if it is worth purchasing other engines as well.
- Is Shredder 12 worth it? are there some parts of the game where it does better than Rybka?
- Are they planning to release a new Deep Junior?
- Is the old Deep Junior 11 worth it, or because it hasn't been updated, even in positions where its strengths lie it has been surpasses by other engines?
Wayne Lowrance (2009-11-13 18:42:00)
Centaur Chess
Howdy John, I will try and give maybe a little more detail to the best my ability.
1) Rybka is probably best up to "end game" and in end game I like Naum and Zappa.
2) Stonewall: , do not know best engine, but probably not Rybka
3.) Not enough information and again it depends on Engine Tactics. But in general, probably is worth looking into deep P.V.
4) Have no idea
5) No idea.
6) Out of book move "repeat/improvement recognition" as far as I know is not a feature. You as the Centaur of course should recognize this.
7) Well, you will get big arguments here. Many will tell you Aquarium (if you can master it).
8) NO
In CC chess, the book is probably the most important thing to study and improve.As mentioned, experience is number one. Dont know if this post is of any value
Wayne
John Smith (2009-11-14 12:18:56)
thanks for the update!
Therefore I should be looking into purchasing Rybka and another engine whose style is different, and the two put together could create some controversy.
Which (strong) engines have a style that is as far as possible to Rybka's?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-11-17 10:10:55)
Rybka
Most solid+positional+knowledge is most probably Rybka, as for the term of "complications", this is a complicated question :) IMO any good player is better than any engine to find it & go in, then a centaur with Rybka is probably best to play it.
John Smith (2009-11-17 10:25:12)
so
So which engine is good to co-consult given Rybka?
In order to be useful it should have a different style, as an engine with style similar to Rybka's is unlikely to provide significantly additional information.
I am guessing Deep Junior is somewhat old (?), Shredder is also solid+positional so possibly not too useful to co-consult, Naum & Zapa have been discontinued and in Fritz the focus has shifted more to training features in the interface.
Is it only Rybka these days? What about the open source & free engines that exist?
John Smith (2009-11-17 13:38:01)
regarding Naum
Regarding Naum retiring, I didn't find an official word on this, but
1) Naum's site http://www.geocities.com/naum_chess/
appears to be down
2) according to wikipedia " Naum tied for first with Rybka in the 2008 Internet Computer Chess Tournament [3], but has not yet competed in other public tournaments."
Thibault de Vassal (2009-11-17 15:27:32)
Naum
All I can say is that the complete Geocities website closed, so it doesn't mean anything for Naum which appeared 2nd behind of Rybka in a recent CEGT rating list.
Michel van der Kemp (2009-12-01 00:40:00)
Andersson & computers
I would think Anderson used all the help he could get, since he is a professional. So if a computer could help him achieve what he needed he would use that.
But mind you this is a maybe 5 years ago, when rybka was unknown, and computers like Fritz were the best engines. Back then humans were still (somewhat) thought to be superior I think, at least in strategical positions. So maybe he didn't use computer assistence.
Benjamin Block (2009-12-09 21:40:03)
release rybka 4
Any one know the release date for rybka 4. Is it before christmas?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-12-09 22:10:27)
Rybka 4 release date
It may happen before 2010 :)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=13306
Daniel Parmet (2009-12-10 02:43:45)
Rent Rybka 4 for $1200
So I heard Vas is intending to rent Rybka 4 for $1200... is this true? If so... what meteor fried his brains?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-12-10 19:17:23)
Rent Rybka 4 for $1200
Hi Daniel, in which discussion (at Rybkaforum.net, I guess) did you read that? Google only shows this thread by searching the topic.
Xavier Pichelin (2009-12-10 22:10:00)
119.95$ not 1200$
For the site the Rybka.com
1) Now Rybka Aquarium 2010+ / Deep Rybka Aquarium 2010+ will include Rybka 3/Deep Rybka 3.
2) Super Bonus. Instead of a right for a free upgrade to Rybka 4 / Deep Rybka 4 you will get a free copy of a professional chess database program Chess Assistant 10 along with Aquarium 2010+!
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-11 18:26:41)
Rent Rybka4
Well, I have been very vocal on the rybka forum. I have told Vas the rental idea is crazy and I wont subscribe to it. Furthermore I am reluctant to spend my hard earned retirement resources for a dumbed down R4.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-11 18:30:33)
Shredder 12 vs Rybka 3
That is good work by Shreddar programmar. For CC chess it s/b a very very good companion for Centaurs I predict
Michael Aigner (2009-12-11 18:58:46)
Rybka + a lot of MIPS
As far as I understood the renting idea is not about renting only the software but Rybka on a very powerfull hardware (a lot of CPUs).
Thibault de Vassal (2009-12-11 20:32:59)
Rybka + a lot of MIPS
That's not the same thing, it may be worth it in playchess events.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-12 20:07:17)
Rent Rybka
Can you imagine renting Rybka for CC ?, I sure cannot. And even if it is on fast hardware, it will be slowed down by all the activity I would guess. For blitz chess it makes no sense either because of the internet delays. Bah, Vas has flipped his lid.
I would get along just fine here on FICGS without Rybka anyhow. More inportant here is the opening and the skill of the Centaur.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-12 20:13:50)
Renting Rybka
Follow up. I learned a long long time ago that the choice of opening book and move selection is the number one important parameter. Number two is the strength and skill of the Centaur. Here most all is using Rybka as the primary program so it figures that the last dependent variable is centaur skill.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-29 00:56:03)
Rybka demise
Howdy all. I feel like voicing my opinion of Vas and Rybka. I honestly feel his hold on the chess community has weakened to the point of breaking. He has his problems. His source code apparently has been compromized. This has led him to not releasing a Rybka3+ as promised. The release of Rybka4 is very cloudy. Then there is this cloud Rybka internet rentel thing that is supported by no one it seems, me for sure.
Anyways this is just back drop for recent developments in free software engines that are very strong and are pushing R3 in ratings. I am thinking about the following engines, that I have downloaded and find very interesting AND strong :
Stockfish 1.6
Brite 0.4A
Spark 0.3
I have minimal experience with these engines. I just want all my friend here on FICGS to be aware of them and if interested they can download them and be on equal footing. My wish is for better chess and I have no ambition to have secret progams.
The important thing I feel is that the loss of Rybka engine does not put much of dent in play quality. It was gonna happen sooner or later, and now it seems sooner.
My honest evaluation today is that Rybka3 still provides the best insite to best mid game play.
I want to put in a word for Zappa. I fairly often use Zappa as my CC engine partner because of better end game analysis. Rybka has no peer in mid game analysis. Well I share these thought with you all for what it may be worth. Best 2010
Cheers.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2009-12-29 14:37:07)
Rybka demise
Thanks for sharing your views on the current computer chess world, Wayne. It is always interesting :) As for Rybka, I did not (want to) imagine this outcome... I continue to think that the little fish would have been catched by her older brothers within a few months/years. But if Rybka's source code has indeed been compromised, the future of chess engines is quite uncertain.
In a way, it could have some interesting consequences for correspondence chess to see clones with the same strength playing different chess.
William Taylor (2009-12-29 15:49:17)
Rybka demise
Thanks Wayne - an interesting post. I've downloaded Stockfish and am currently testing it against Rybka - 50% so far. While searching for the engines you mentioned I came across an engine called RobboLito (and Ippolit and Igorrit which are similar I believe). Opinion seems to be divided as to whether or not it is a Rybka clone, and how strong it is. Is this what you were referring to when you said Rybka's code may have been compromised? Any opinion on RobboLito?
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-29 18:40:55)
Rybka demise
William, wow, These are new engines for me, I will look for them.
On cloning, Stockfish is not the engine cloned as for as I know. There are two other engines for which I have downloaded because the moderators of the Rybka forum have deleted all reference to them, including engine name and download site. Vas has admitted that one in particuliar is a clone and the cloning programmer had discussions with Vas letting him know what he was doing, very interesting. Since both these engines are free downloadable making the source code available for all other programmers. It is common on the forum discussions about R3 source code being compromised.
Thank you for sharing your Stockfish- Rybka testing results. What time control are your test run.
Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-29 18:45:35)
Rybka demise
Ooops sorry, I meant to say two engines I have NOT down loaded
Wayne
William Taylor (2009-12-29 18:46:30)
Rybka demise
I wasn't suggesting that Stockfish was a Rybka clone - I was talking about RobboLito.
My testing of Stockfish vs Rybka was not serious - just a 12-game blitz match (4 minutes with 2 seconds increment). Rybka won 6.5 - 5.5, so not a bad performance by Stockfish, but we can't draw any real conclusions from such a test.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-12-29 19:50:45)
RobboLito vs. Rybka 3
What are RobboLito, Ippolit and Igorrit ? It looks like these names are invading computer chess forums... As you may have read in the discussion mentioned below, the Rybka 3's source code may have been compromised and these engines "may" be clones of Rybka 3 (everyone does not agree on this). Good or really bad news, anyway this open source chess engine may have many consequences on the computer chess world, and correspondence chess as well...
http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=forum_read&id=8031
From the wikispace mentioned below :
IPPOLIT : Intellectual Persons Promotion Of Leninist International Tradesunions (!??)
Q. What is RobboLito?
A. RobboLito is the version of IPPOLIT that now contains endgame tablebases, the RobboBases.
A few links on RobboLito 0.085f1a, Ippolit & Igorrit (says it all IMO) :
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/RobboLito
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/Igorrit
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/FAQ
see also : ippolit.wikispaces.com/Clone+(Question)
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/News
-> IPPOLIT banned from chessprogramming wiki!
PlayChess banned IPPOLIT from use online also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r_V_QkmHjo
http://www.chesslogik.com/robbolito.htm
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/free-chessengine-robbolito-is-1-at-swisstest-rybka-2?lc=1
http://www.cyclonechess.com/rybka3.htm
"RobboLito is an open-source UCI chess engine by: Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin, Igor Igorovich Igoronov, and Roberto Pescatore."
RobboLito does not yet support: multiPV, own book, egbbs, tablebases, multiple CPUs/cores, chess variants
Estimated rating: ~ 3300 ELO
Available versions:
RobboLito 0.085g3 w32
(optimized windows 32-bit executable and source code)
RobboLito_0.085g3_w32_no_SSE2
(optimized windows 32-bit executable - for older CPUs that don't support Intel SSE2 instruction set)
RobboLito 0.085g3_x64
(fast windows 64-bit PGO executable
compiled by peterpan)
RobboLito 0.085g3l_x86
(optimized linux 64-bit executable and source code
ported to linux by unisky)
http://www.cyclonechess.com/robbolito.htm
http://www.cyclonechess.com/rybka3.htm
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1261597025/4
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1258991841
http://queenchess.blogspot.com/2009/11/fritz-12-vs-robbolito-e2-latest-version.html
http://lefounumerique.xooit.com/next?t=663 (french)
Thibault de Vassal (2009-12-30 00:39:48)
RobboLito NOT a clone of Rybka ?
According to Tony Thomas, RobboLito & Ippolit wouldn't be a clone of Rybka 3... and it would be 50 to 100 points stronger!
http://tonythomas.mylivepage.com/forum/134/2663/Ippolit%20&%20Robbolito%20are%20NOT%20Rybka%20clones
William Taylor (2009-12-30 11:38:30)
RobboLito
There are lots of discussions on talkchess about whether or not RobboLito is a Rybka clone (some of which are made longer by the fact that not everyone sticks to the topic). As far as I can tell there is no clear consensus - perhaps most are saying that until someone provides clear evidence that Robbo is a clone it should be assumed not to be, but some are adamant that it is a clone (either of Rybka 3, or of something closer to Rybka 4 - leaked code). Vas says it is a clone, and that the hackers have even informed him of their progress via e-mail, but he has apparently not provided evidence for his claim as he did for the Strelka case (Strelka was a Rybka clone). Many programmers on the forum say that they cannot see any evidence that Robbo is a Rybka clone by looking at the source code, and it often gives quite different evaluations.
Nick Burrows (2009-12-30 16:17:12)
Rybka Clones.
It has to be doesn't it?
How can a random programmer out of nowhere produce a program that compete with money invested and the years of highly specialised knowledge that is the Rybka project?
Sebastien Benoit (2009-12-30 17:22:55)
On reverse enginerring
I'v read some of the arguments for and against the theory that RobboLito is a Rybka clone and I must say that I'm more inclined to beleive it is not. But for those who think that the reverse engineering of a software as complex as Rybka is not possible... sorry but it is possible! A team ( don't know how many guys would be needed) of good computer scientists would certainly be able to reverse engineer enough of it to get a global picture of what kind of optimisations it has. And remember that computer chess is not new and a lot of knowledge is available trough books and of course, the web.
Some are claiming that a reverse engineered clone of Rybka would have the same level of functionality as the original. They say that, because they don't really understand the process. Reverse engineering doesn't necessarily lead to an approximate clone of the origninal source code. It is more a process of understanding how it works. Once you got this understanding you can write from scratch and add incrementally whatever functionnality you desire.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-30 19:10:08)
Rybka clone
Nick I think you have hit the nail on the head. Yes that is suspicious. Commercial programmers of programs like shreddar, Fritz, Junior and Zappa, etc have worked a long time and not come to Rybka playing floor yet. So it would seem unreasonable these recent free programs have made the jump mostly right at the start. A huge compliment to Vas I would say
Wayne
William Taylor (2009-12-30 22:17:44)
Wayne
Stockfish is not a commercial program, and has only been released relatively recently (I think), but it is already at about the level of Rybka. I know it's based on Glaurung, which has had years of work put into it, but perhaps Robbo is also based on a strong open source program. I'm not saying Robbo's not a Rybka clone - very likely it is - I'm just pointing out that it is possible for free, open source programs to approach or surpass the level of commercial ones.
On another note, for anyone interested I ran a quick 12xRR 2 2 tournament today with Rybka 3 32-bit, Stockfish 1.6 JA and RobboLito 0.085g3 w32. Rybka scored 13/24, Stockfish 12/24, and Robbo 11/24. Of course, the time control was very quick and I'm not putting this result forward as a serious test, but it seems that the 3 (or 2) may be close enough to be competitive. An interesting time for computer chess.
Rodolfo d Ettorre (2010-01-01 02:50:25)
Open Source ...
Really I think a commercial program like Rybka will be very likely the strongest not because of the software developers working on ir, but because they can get some tips from open source programs, like Robbolito.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-01-07 00:40:28)
Fed Up
I am sick and tired of all this forbidden stuff. Hell everyone here knows who the clone is, if it is a clone. Chess for us is a hobby, for Vas it is his income, but he is gonna have to deal with it, as he is with the cloud idea.
If he has a legal case with certain developments then he should put up or
shut up. This not gonna be popular with all the rybka chess nurds on the Rybka forum, it is just the position I have slowly grown into. Vas has made promises which he cannot/will not honor. So I show him no Honor. I am making reference to all the deleted, hush hush bickering and restrictions of naming suspected Rybka clones.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-01-07 01:49:41)
Rybka vs. RobboLito
I must say I still have no opinion on all this... It looks like very hard to say if RobboLito/Ippolit is a clone or not... Let's see how this will evolve.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-01-07 00:42:00)
Fed Up
The above was posted in the Rybka forum.
Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2010-01-07 18:45:05)
Fed Up
Thib you missed my point. It is the forbidden, hush hush, "dont you dare mention that name here" that bugs me the most. I have always been a strong supporter of the Vas "lil girl", followed her tournaments etc etc.
Oh well it is not worth my concern anyhow. As I said I owe no loyality to Vas any more, If his continued Rybka programing yields the best engine, I will buy it. Results is what matters.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-01-08 01:45:23)
Rybka
I understand, I assume & hope that Vasik Rajlich has good reasons to think that RobboLito is a clone, that would be a reason enough to forbid to mention it in the forums dedicated to Rybka IMO... But it is true that if noone can prove it is not a clone & if there is no real reason to think that it actually is a clone, it would be not very "fairplay".
That's why I said I have no opinion on this.
The most surprising thing in all that is that RobboLito is open source. That makes me think that it is not a clone, but who can say it...
Wayne Lowrance (2010-01-11 21:33:11)
Fed Up
Howdy Thibault. Clone or no Clone. Technically I am not qualified to check source etc. But I will say this. The evals are very very often identical after checking .
Also, in some brief eng-eng matches, I find that Rybka is stronger, at least for longer timers which would suggest favorable CC play.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-01-12 07:49:26)
Rybka vs. RobboLito
Hi Wayne, thanks for reporting this! I tested RobboLito as well and I was not totally convinced. In some positions its evals are quite bad IMO... I wouldn't trust it as a unique partner for correspondence chess analysis.
Lazaro Munoz (2010-01-31 11:54:48)
SuperGMs watch Corr?!
The Vidalina-Kabachev games goes:
[Event "WC-2006-F-00005"]
[Site "LSS"]
[Date "2007.9.12"]
[Round ""]
[White "Vidalina, Franjo"]
[Black "Kabachev, Andrey"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco ""]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bg5
a6 8.Na3 b5 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 Bg7 11.Bd3 Ne7 12.Nxe7 Qxe7 13.c4
f5 14.O-O O-O 15.Qh5 Rb8 16.exf5 e4 17.Rae1 Bb7 18.Qg4 Rfe8 19.cxb5
d5 20.bxa6 Bc6 21.b3 Kh8 22.Nc2 Bc3 23.Be2 Qf6 24.Rd1 Rg8 25.Qf4
d4 26.Bc4 d3 27.Ne1 Be5 28.Qe3 Rg5 29.g3 Rxf5 30.Ng2 Rg8 31.Rc1
Bd4 32.Qd2 Rf3 33.Rce1 Rgxg3 0-1
Interestingly Shirov played 23. Qh3 in his game. Rybka thought the move absolutely sucked and would have responded with the material grab: 23...Bxe1 24. Rxe1 Qc5 25. Bf1 Qxc2 giving it +0.11. It thought that white was much better before 23. Qh3 with the simple 23. Be2 (as was played by Vidalina).
Vidalina may have resigned prematurely since after 34. hxg3 Rxg3 35. Re3, Black is better and has some attacking chances there does not seem to be knock-out move.
Rodolfo d Ettorre (2010-02-13 15:04:22)
RobboLito vs. Rybka 3
Some facts or fictions:
Robbolito is a clone of Rybka
Robbolito is open source
Conclusion:
Rybka is now open source!
Wayne Lowrance (2010-03-06 04:21:56)
Help : Tablebases, Rybka 3
I recently had a power failure that crushed my comp. I re installed vista.
Have trouble with R3 executing tablebases.
In a nut shell here is what I can tell you:
My table bases are located on hard drive D:(My Chess- tablebase).
I am pointing to that location for R3 to look for tablebases.
Here is what happens: Using Infinite analysis my pv's are getting TB hits but are not showing the solution path.
Am I missing some file ? some file misplaced ? MY bases are on D, R3 is on C, dont think that is a problem.
I sure could use some help
Thank you
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-06 18:29:04)
Help : Tablebases, Rybka 3
Hi Wayne, very sorry about this :/
So you use Aquarium, right? I don't know anything about it but sure you should find help quickly on Rybka forum...
Just take your time and come back at your best ;)
Iouri Basiliev (2010-03-07 12:58:43)
Help : Tablebases, Rybka 3
Hey Wayne,
Just close your R3 normally and open it again. TB must be seen now by Rybka :)
Benjamin Block (2010-03-12 16:18:21)
Help : Tablebases, Rybka 3
I like table base. But i never install them on my computer because it takes place. If you have the same problem check this link: http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html
Save over 1000 GB space free :D
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-13 21:26:08)
Help : Tablebases, Rybka 3
It will never be exactly the same to play with the help of this interface... At least it is quite feasible to install 5 + some 6 pieces tablebases.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-20 22:24:31)
Firebird, Ivanhoe vs. Rybka
Of course, since the free open source chess engine Ippolit is available, clones have appeared, starting with RobboLito & Igorrit, now Ivanhoe & Firebird, and some may be even stronger...
It seems that we still do not have any clue to know if Ippolit is itself a clone of Rybka or not, anyway it would interesting to compare these new engines.
Does anyone have any informations, tournament results or something for these new engines?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-21 22:52:10)
SSDF rating list (march 2010)
The new SSDF rating list reveals at least one thing : Between an old Athlon 1200 and a modern Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600, there is at least a 120 point gap. Unfortunately, Ippolit/Ivanhoe/Igorrit/Firebird are still out of the list.
SSDF RATING LIST 2010-03-21 %120316 games played by 311 computers
Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Deep Rybka 3 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3227 27 -25 1005 83% 2962
2 Naum 4 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3149 25 -23 986 74% 2963
3 Deep Shredder 12 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3124 26 -24 863 70% 2972
4 Deep Fritz 12 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3117 37 -36 373 60% 3043
5 Deep Rybka 3 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 3090 39 -38 332 58% 3033
6 Deep Fritz 11 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3081 22 -21 1142 68% 2946
7 Zappa Mexico II x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3068 27 -26 696 59% 3002
8 Naum 3.1 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3052 30 -29 572 59% 2990
9 Deep Hiarcs 12 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3039 22 -21 1087 61% 2958
10 Deep Shredder 11 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3038 26 -26 726 58% 2981
11 Hiarcs 11.2 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3010 25 -25 761 54% 2984
12 Glaurung 2.2 x64 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3007 22 -22 1001 60% 2933
13 Shredder 12 256MB A1200 MHz 3006 39 -39 320 45% 3040
14 Naum 4 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2998 29 -29 574 50% 2996
15 Deep Junior 10.1 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2975 25 -25 766 48% 2992
16 Rybka 2.3.1 Arena 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2926 22 -22 964 52% 2912
17 Fritz 11 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2915 27 -27 669 47% 2935
18 Deep Fritz 8 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2912 25 -26 753 39% 2991
19 Shredder 8 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2908 28 -29 603 39% 2984
20 Deep Shredder 11 256MB Athlon 1200 2907 30 -30 534 45% 2941
21 Hiarcs 11.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2879 23 -23 941 49% 2882
22 CM King 3.5 x64 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2866 31 -32 530 33% 2990
23 Junior 10.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2864 19 -20 1271 47% 2882
24 Deep Junior 8 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2859 29 -30 589 36% 2961
25 Fritz 10 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2851 34 -33 458 64% 2749
26 Zap!Chess Z. 256MB Athlon 1200 MH 2842 21 -21 1060 50% 2840
27 Fruit 2.2.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2833 19 -19 1385 62% 2750
28 Spike 1.2 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2817 26 -26 714 57% 2766
29 Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2775 25 -26 748 46% 2805
29 Rybka 1.0 beta 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2775 64 -69 115 38% 2860
31 Zap!Chess 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2737 30 -29 562 53% 2713
32 Gandalf 6.0 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2735 24 -24 855 56% 2693
33 Pocket Fritz 3 Hiarcs Ipaq 214 624 MHz 2733 64 -58 142 66% 2617
34 Chessmaster 9000 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2720 36 -35 385 56% 2680
35 Pro Deo 1.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2714 24 -23 876 57% 2660
36 Pocket Shredder Ipaq 114 624 MHz 2698 83 -70 100 74% 2520
37 Deep Sjeng 1.5a 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2675 31 -31 493 52% 2663
38 CEBoard Fruit 2.3.1 XScale 400 400 MHz 2647 65 -61 129 62% 2564
39 Revelation Rybka 2.2 XScale 500 MHz 2632 47 -45 240 62% 2549
39 Ruffian 2.0.0 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2632 49 -49 205 46% 2661
41 Pocket Fritz 3 Glaurung 2.1 Ipaq 614C 2528 69 -74 100 40% 2604
42 Pocket Fritz 2 XScale 400 MHz 2508 48 -46 225 57% 2459
43 Resurrection Rybka 2.2 StrongARM 203 MH 2484 43 -43 260 51% 2477
44 Resurrection Fruit '05 StrongARM 203 MH 2395 67 -63 120 60% 2320
45 Hiarcs 9.5a/9.6 Palm TungstenE OMAP 126 2392 35 -35 400 45% 2426
46 CEBoard Crafty 2004 HP RX4240 400 MHz 2375 52 -54 180 41% 2443
47 R30 v. 2.5 2274 41 -38 343 69% 2136
48 Palm Tiger 2009 Tung C 400 MHz 2229 66 -71 110 38% 2317
49 Chess Genius 1.4 SX1 OMAP 310 120 MHz 2151 50 -48 210 60% 2081
50 Chess Tiger 14.9 Palm m515 16MB 42MHz 2103 69 -74 100 39% 2182
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-30 22:35:35)
Playchess PAL tournaments winners
Thanks Samy, so the list of winners so far :
1. ZackS
2. Zor_champ (Hydra)
3. Rajlich (Rybka's author)
4. Xakru (Jiri Dufek and Roman Chytilek)
5. Flying Saucers
6. Rajlich
7. Ibermax
8. Ultima (Eros Riccio)
Garvin Gray (2010-03-31 11:15:56)
Computer keeps locking up... assistance
With all the Rybka engines I have:
Dynamic
Human
and Rybka 3.
Yes.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-31 15:41:58)
Computer keeps locking up... assistance
Yes, I guess that you doesn't let your computer work a so long time with other engines :) Anyway, it is unlikely to come from Rybka. How much RAM do you use?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-01 00:02:58)
How to check tablebases integrity
A small tip that I just read on rybkaforum.net and that can serve again...
For checking tablebase integrity, one can use md5summer.exe
http://www.md5summer.org/download.html
Tablebases md5 files :
http://kirill-kryukov.com/chess/tablebases-online/
It looks like very useful when trying to install 6 pieces tablebases, particularly when your engine suddenly crashes when trying to access it, by the way how did you get it Wayne? TBgen.exe or download? Does anyone know how much time it takes in both cases?
What kind of computer (processor, ram) is necessary to generated 6 pieces tablebases?
Josef Riha (2010-04-01 09:14:18)
Computer keeps locking up... assistance
Other things you can do: Open the taskmanager and check the priority level of the Rybka process. The default value is normal.
What's the use of tablebases? Up to 5 or 6 Men? Notice that the 6 Men need extrem much memory.
Open the GUI options and click on the tablebase tab. What's the size of the cashe memory? The best value is 8MB.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-05 00:58:06)
Advanced chess ratings calculation
For some reasons that I'll explain below, I updated the advanced chess (bullet, lightning, blitz, freestyle) rating calculation rules to the following :
"Performance = Opponent Current Rating if the game is drawn, + 350 if the game is won, -350 if the game is lost.
The following bonus / malus applied to White and to Black makes ratings fair, as it is not possible to force a player to take White or Black before a game :
(White) Performance = Performance - 50
(Black) Performance = Performance + 50
If there's a winner and if his rating is below 2400, his new rating his :
New Rating = ((8 x Current Rating) + (2 x Performance)) / 10
Otherwise :
New Rating = ((9 x Current Rating) + (1 x Performance)) / 10
The rating calculation does not take account of wins obtained by a stronger player when the Elo difference is greater than 350 points, the same with losses by a weaker player.
In case of a draw or loss against a player rated more than 200 points less, the opponent's rating considered in calculation is : Current Rating - 200. A player who wins a game cannot lose Elo points, a player who loses a game cannot win Elo points."
More details :
http://www.ficgs.com/membership.html#rating_advanced_chess
The rule that just changed is "If there's a winner and if his rating is below 2400, his new rating his : New Rating = ((8 x Current Rating) + (2 x Performance)) / 10".
This rule will probably be updated again in a few months with a rating limit of 2200 instead of 2400, when advanced chess ratings will be more coherent with correspondence chess ratings.
The reasons are :
1) Advanced/freestyle chess is often neglected partly because players will likely lose some rating points (many strong players using Rybka 3-like engines still have a rating of 1800 or 2000, there are several reasons to this), the main point is probably the interface but I'm fixing it (e.g. the new touch-move option - see Preferences).
2) Chess engines are just stronger and stronger while the ratings do not increase with the previous rules, as a consequence players who just tried advanced chess once years ago shouldn't still top the rating list. It is of course a way for players to find their place quicker in the rating list & to incitate players to play more games as well.
Robert Mueller (2010-04-11 09:12:03)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Thibault, I see there is going to be a match Rybka Forum vs FICGS. They are recruiting eight players to play individual games against FICGS members. Who is going to play for FICGS? Do you still need a player? I would be interested in playing, but I will be on vacation from May 8 to May 15.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-11 15:20:48)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Hi Robert, I'm not sure yet if there are so many members at Rybkaforum interested to play (actually it looks like the most are FICGS players until there), but if it can motivate them, let's try to build a team already :)
Vacation would not be a problem as a long time control should be the option but there is no rule well defined yet. However the rules will probably look like the ones used in FICGS vs. Igame.ru
The thread at Rybkaforum is there :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16132
Do not hesitate to post here and there if you're interested to play such a match!
Robert Mueller (2010-04-11 16:21:54)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Actually, it seems they already have seven players:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16195
If you build a team, please count me in.
William Taylor (2010-04-11 17:48:52)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I'd be interested in playing, and I also like the suggested rule of Rybka forum members only being assisted by Rybka, and us only being assisted by other engines.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-11 20:59:51)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Oh ok, thanks Robert, I didn't see this discussion at Rybkaforum before...
The idea discussed with "Vytron" is : Half players would play their game here at FICGS, and the other half would play their game at the Rybka forum... Of course there would be a kind of time control there but this would be a friendly match before all!
So please post here if you're interested to play in the FICGS team and specify if you would be ok to play your game at the Rybkaforum.
I'm in, of course (if my new rating allow me to play :)), and I'm ok to play at the Rybkaforum.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-04-11 22:47:43)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I am in if you need me. I think you will have many volunteers. I will play my games at either server, just as long as I am a FICGS member
Wayne
William Taylor (2010-04-11 23:43:06)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I'm in if my rating's good enough, and am happy to play at Rybka forum if necessary. If you get too many people volunteering I'm happy not to play.
Robert Mueller (2010-04-12 05:14:47)
Match Against Rybka Forum
> So please post here if you're interested
> to play in the FICGS team and specify
> if you would be ok to play your game
> at the Rybkaforum.
Thibault, I would like to play for the FICGS team. I would prefer to play here at FICGS.
Garvin Gray (2010-04-12 05:57:57)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I would like to know about how boards are going to be decided? Will it in rating order for both teams.
If so, then I am interested. If teams are able to put their players in any order, then I will pass.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-12 14:46:39)
Rating order + Unrated games
Garvin, a problem is that most Rybkaforum players may not have any rating yet, so it will be probably not significant. By the way, all games will be unrated, of course.
Mircea Hrubaru (2010-04-12 20:58:37)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I'm interested. On behalf of FICGS, of course.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-12 21:08:23)
NEW # 1
New number 1 or not, the gap decreases... All this was predictable (and it was predicted) even if Rybka was untouchable for the most when the gap was over 100 elo points... but after that Chessbase intelligently scheduled the improvements of Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs & finally Rybka, came Naum, Stockfish, Ippolit & its clones RobboLito, Ivanhoe & Firebird.
Clones or not clones, anyway now it seems obvious for everyone that it will be harder and harder to make money with chess engines, just like with everything else on the internet... The beginning of the decadence (according to its meaning) ?
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-04-13 07:05:55)
NEW # 1
FRC means fischer random chess, still Rybka's not surpassed in regular chess after almost 2 years.
Michel van der Kemp (2010-04-13 11:00:06)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I would be interested to play also.
Xavier Pichelin (2010-04-13 12:59:03)
RYBKA 4 UCI available in May
Forum Rybka :De Vasik Rajlich Date 2010-04-11 07:47 Some information about Rybka 4:
- Rybka 4 will be a normal UCI engine, without copy protection, and will be available in the first part of May.
- There will be separate single-processor and multi-processor versions.
- Full chess analysis packages which include Rybka 4 will be made by ChessBase (www.chessbase.com) and Convekta/ChessOK (www.chessok.com).
- Plain Rybka 4 UCI without GUI for download only will be available from RybkaChess (www.rybkachess.com).
- All of these versions of Rybka 4 will be identical and can be used in any UCI-compliant GUI.
- The Rybka 4 book by Jiří Dufek will be available as a separate item from both ChessBase and Convekta. The two versions of the book will be 'essentially identical', although in different formats.
- Rybka 4 book compatibility will work as follows:
* ChessBase software users will require the ChessBase version of the book.
* Aquarium users can use either version of the book.
* Other software users are encouraged to upgrade their chess software.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-13 13:07:23)
Accounts at Rybkaforum
Hi Garvin, finally pairings will be arbitrary, so are you interested to play? (if yes, would you like to play at Rybkaforum or at FICGS?)
Michel & Mircea, would you like to play at Rybkaforum as well?
Currently Wayne, William & me will play at Rybkaforum, we need only one more.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-13 13:13:07)
RYBKA 4 UCI available in the first part
Thanks for the great news!
I just wonder why "without copy protection" and why it is specified... or was he convinced by the "Bill Gates/Microsoft" strategy as well?
Mircea Hrubaru (2010-04-13 14:08:25)
Match Against Rybka Forum
OK Thibault.
Michel van der Kemp (2010-04-13 14:19:59)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Yes I can play on their forum also, though I prefer the FICGS interface here :)
Mircea Hrubaru (2010-04-13 15:58:44)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I think I want to play at FICGS.
Garvin Gray (2010-04-13 16:14:50)
Match Against Rybka Forum
If the pairings are going to be arbitarly, which I take it mean that players can be paired in any order, then I am OUT.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-13 17:06:16)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Okay Garvin! So we still need one more player, anyone?
Garvin Gray (2010-04-13 17:22:52)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I have a proposal though. We could ask the organisers from the Rybka team if they would be willing to play their team in 'rating order' or whatever they are going to use.
The reason I am against having players play in any order is that it will lead to more mis-matches and does not tell much about the players of either forum.
Robert Mueller (2010-04-13 17:38:51)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Another subject that should be discussed is that of names (real or otherwise). It is my understanding that some members of the Rybka team will start an account at FICGS. I assume they will have to sign up using their real names? How will we know who is who on the Rybka forum? Or do we need to know that?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-13 18:03:22)
Match Against Rybka Forum
True, Garvin. I just made the suggestion at Rybkaforum.
Robert, Rybkaforum members who will play at FICGS will enter a real name for sure, just like other members. We do not have to specify our real name at the Rybkaforum, just following their rules.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-13 20:37:31)
@ Garvin
I'm not sure if the ratings will mean something... e.g. G.Clement at Rybkaforum is rated 2129, but probably uses Rybka. I don't know their other ratings yet so we may have a few provisional 1800 players among our opponents. Ratings ordered or not, all this looks like quite arbitrary.
Just tell me, Garvin... we have a player in replacement if needed.
Peter Marriott (2010-04-13 21:56:25)
Firebird, Ivanhoe vs. Rybka
All I know is that Firebird is dang strong. When I did a match of FireBird vs. Rybka 3 the results were 36/50 for FireBird.
Garvin Gray (2010-04-14 05:35:49)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Ok stick me in anyways :) Which will make the eight players.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-14 16:22:00)
Firebird, Ivanhoe vs. Rybka
There are several articles that are worth to read on Firebird & the other chess engines from the Ippolit series, also on the history of chess engines from Fritz, Shredder, Hiarcs & Junior to Stockfish and programmers/clones issues, particularly at Chessvibes & ChessNinja :
Chess engine controversy
http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/chess-engine-controversy/
New fish in town
http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2010/04/new-fish-in-town.htm
Garvin Gray (2010-04-14 16:54:56)
Firebird, Ivanhoe vs. Rybka
How does one get these other engines?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-14 18:23:11)
Firebird, Ivanhoe vs. Rybka
Most are available there:
http://www.chesslogik.com
RobboLito & Firebird there:
http://www.ficgs.com/Download-Firebird-1.2-f7379.html
http://www.ficgs.com/Download-RobboLito-0085g3-f5841.html
Wayne Lowrance (2010-04-15 01:26:09)
Computer keeps locking up... assistance
Josef. Your post is interesting to me. when I do your procedure I do not see the option of gui tablebases. You have any answer ? I have had much trouble with 6 man tablebases and Rybka. all seems to be ok for last 2 weeks, but my engine only can get TB's thru the PV's no Gui lookup. Sure would like to fix this, if anyone has a suggestion
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-17 21:34:42)
Match Against Rybka Forum
We need a 10th player for the match vs. Rybkaforum, this player would play his game at Rybkaforum... Anyone interested ?
Our current team :
Wayne Lowrance 2479 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Harvey Williamson [2425 ICCF] (will play at Rybkaforum)
Thibault de Vassal 2376 (will play at Rybkaforum)
William Taylor 2110 (will play at Rybkaforum)
??? (will play at Rybkaforum)
Robert Mueller 2383 (will play at FICGS)
Michel van der Kemp 2226 (will play at FICGS)
Garvin Gray 2133 (will play at FICGS)
Kamesh Nookala 2126 (will play at FICGS)
Mircea Hrubaru 1988 (will play at FICGS)
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-17 22:54:30)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Our almost definitive team :
Wayne Lowrance 2479 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Harvey Williamson [2425 ICCF] (will play at Rybkaforum)
Thibault de Vassal 2376 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Sebastian Boehme 2288 (will play at Rybkaforum)
William Taylor 2110 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Robert Mueller 2383 (will play at FICGS)
Michel van der Kemp 2226 (will play at FICGS)
Garvin Gray 2133 (will play at FICGS)
Mircea Hrubaru 1988 (will play at FICGS)
Samy Ould Ahmed 1889 [ICCF 2418] (will play at FICGS)
Stéphane Legrand 2222 (will play at (?))
Kamesh Nookala 2126 (will play at (?))
Kamesh Nookala (2010-04-18 05:53:45)
Match Against Rybka Forum
I will play anywhere on this planet via internet Thib :p
Francesco Romeo (2010-04-18 07:26:55)
RobboLito vs. Rybka 3
download RobboLito vs. Rybka 3 games in pgn
Benjamin Block (2010-04-19 16:38:36)
RobboLito vs. Rybka 3
I prefer Rybka 3 in corr chess because i can only show 1 the best move with RobboLito:S. which make it really hard...
Gaetano Laghetti (2010-04-20 09:29:54)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Dear my 'old' chessfriend Thibault,
if you need another player I'd be happy to join you.
Regards
Gaetano
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-21 15:15:22)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Here are the pairings (games started at RybkaForum & are to start here)
Games at Rybka Forum:
Bobby C (RybkaForum) Vs. Harvey Williamson (FICGS)
Kamesh Nookala (FICGS) Vs. Mark Eldridge (RybkaForum)
omprakash (RybkaForum) Vs. Sebastian Boehme (FICGS)
Thibault de Vassal (FICGS) Vs. SpiderG (RybkaForum)
Weirwindle111 (RybkaForum) Vs. Wayne Lowrance (FICGS)
William Taylor (FICGS) Vs. Vytron (RybkaForum)
Games at FICGS:
Garvin Gray (FICGS) Vs. burch_michael (RybkaForum)
clement_george (RybkaForum) Vs. Michel van der Kemp (FICGS)
Mircea Hrubaru (FICGS) Vs. Gaetano Laghetti (RybkaForum)
Ivan Trajkov (RybkaForum) Vs. Robert Mueller (FICGS)
Samy Ould Ahmed (FICGS) Vs. José Sanz (RybkaForum)
Plant_Kevin (RybkaForum) Vs. Stéphane Legrand (FICGS)
Let's have fun :)
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-21 15:20:31)
Match Against Rybka Forum
About the rules :
Time control 20 days + 20 days / 10 moves at FICGS... for the games played at RybkaForum it is 24/48 hours per move in average & in relax mode, there will not be "losses on time"...
It seems to me that there is no other special rule, I just asked Vytron to confirm.
George Clement (2010-04-21 19:58:54)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Thibault, how do we access a match on FICGS in this tournament? Will you set it up?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-21 20:36:45)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Yes, within hours, most probably.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-22 00:14:03)
Match Against Rybka Forum
All games started !
You can see all boards for games played at FICGS here :
http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=tournament&tournament=FICGS__CHESS__FICGS_VS_RYBKAFORUM_MATCH&boards=1
The other games played at Rybkaforum :
Bobby C Vs. Harvey Williamson
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16385
Kamesh N. Vs. Mark Eldridge
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16389
omprakash Vs. Sebastian Boehme
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16388
Thibault d.V. Vs. SpiderG
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16383
Weirwindle111 Vs. Wayne Lowrance
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16384
William T. Vs. Vytron
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16390
Have nice games :)
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-20 15:59:34)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Hi Gaetano! Very nice to see you in, by the way even in the opposite team as Rybkaforum needed one player more... :)
Thanks to you both teams are complete now, the match should start very very soon!
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-20 16:02:07)
FICGS team (final)
Wayne Lowrance 2479 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Harvey Williamson [2425 ICCF] (will play at Rybkaforum)
Thibault de Vassal 2376 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Sebastian Boehme 2288 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Kamesh Nookala 2126 (will play at Rybkaforum)
William Taylor 2110 (will play at Rybkaforum)
Robert Mueller 2383 (will play at FICGS)
Michel van der Kemp 2226 (will play at FICGS)
Stéphane Legrand 2222 (will play at FICGS)
Garvin Gray 2133 (will play at FICGS)
Mircea Hrubaru 1988 (will play at FICGS)
Samy Ould Ahmed 1889 [ICCF 2418] (will play at FICGS)
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-21 02:46:14)
Final Match details
Hi Wayne,
You mean the match FICGS vs. RybkaForum, right?
Robert Mueller (2010-04-21 04:36:04)
Final Match details
Somewhere in the discussions about this match it was suggested that the Rybka forum members only use Rybka and that FICGS members may not use Rybka. Is this an actual rule agreed upon or was it just a suggestion?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-09 23:02:05)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
It looks like Rybka 4 is to be released, this discussion could gather the news, tests & results in matches of this new version against Rybka 3 and other engines (thinking about Stockfish 1.7.1, Naum 4.2, Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Hiarcs & engines that are "possible" clones of Rybka: Firebird 1.2, Ivanhoe, RobboLito, Ippolit & so on)...
Wayne Lowrance (2010-05-09 23:25:22)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
Howdy Thibault. is this release info new where did you get it if so.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-09 23:34:06)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
Well, as it is possible to pre-order it at Chessbase & Chessok (Aquarium), I guess it should be released soon!?
The author of Rybka (Vasik Rajlich) said the first part of may...
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3546/aquarium.jpg
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-05-09 23:35:54)
How many games at once?
Mr Groves if you want faster games, in the Rybka forum they play games at one move per day, maybe you will not lose your precious time waiting for your opponent moves.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-05-11 00:34:07)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
Bad assumption, he has not kept a date in 2 years
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-11 15:28:54)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
...and he probably has much more to do this time to protect his source code & make an engine stronger than its possible clones... so we'll see :)
Daniel Parmet (2010-05-11 19:31:54)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
but its not actually being released either right? Its just they send you some online server login password bs. Its not a real engine this time around.
William Taylor (2010-05-12 17:53:24)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
I was under the impression it was being released as normal, but there may be a stronger version held in reserve for the online thing.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-05-12 19:31:36)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
By the way it is stated here http://www.chessbase.com/espanola/newsdetail2.asp?id=8300 (article is in spanish) by Cheparinov that Topalov's team had access to Rybka 4 during preparation. Also new Rybka opening book author, Jiri Dufek, was on Topalov's team.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-05-12 19:41:16)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
Wow, that is interesting
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-12 20:03:42)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
Indeed, I didn't know that, thanks for the link!
Daniel Parmet (2010-05-12 20:25:51)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
Wow interesting.... I know it was on chessbase but I doubt it was common knowledge...
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-05-13 03:25:06)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
This was posted in the Hiarcs forum by Harvey Williamson:" Now it is all over it is time to share a little secret. The day before the World Championship final in Sofia started I had a conversation with Vishy's team. For the duration of the match they have had access to my fast 8/16 core machine as well as all my databases and Hiarcs opening books. Also, of course, all the engines on my machine. I Hope this managed to negate slightly the fact that Topalov had access to the latest Rybka on its Cluster for a few months leading up leading up to the final."
Daniel Parmet (2010-05-14 10:41:15)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
you know an interesting thing i've noticed by listening to these post match interviews with Anand...
He is saying he expected Topalov to switch openings alot and not be so persistent. I wonder if Topalov was so persistent because he had Rybka 4 and he knew Anand did not.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-14 12:26:10)
Rybka 4 beta is playing...
http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=348113&t=34270
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16655
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16620
"Rybka 4 will be available on May 28."
http://www.newinchess.com/Shop/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=2479&utm_source=New+In+Chess&utm_campaign=de04452343-Campaign_36_12_5_2010&utm_medium=email
Garvin Gray (2010-05-15 11:40:44)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=506
This is for the single processer version I think. So will wait for the multi-processer version.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-05-15 20:57:44)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
Here is the chessbase version http://www.chesscentral.com/Deep_Rybka_4_p/deep-rybka-4.htm
and the chessok with aquarium http://chessok.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7_1
Wayne Lowrance (2010-05-16 21:42:34)
Quick review Chess Engines
Howdy, Rybka 4 Beta 5 is out for beta testing. It is much too early to draw conclusions regarding elo strength. So far it is not looking great.
Many of the bugs from R3 are at present in R5 beta. For example the tablebase bug, bishop under promotion still not fixed, 5.04/5.12 bug tree search is reportedly still there.
In addition It is said to have severe time problem.
This is a summary of what I have been reading. But, these reports are beta remember. So R4 may still be top program after release.
In the mean time Stockfish and fire are 2 programs that are right there with rybka3 and maybe a little stronger. On my computer testing R3 is still tops.
Now, there is a new program, Houdini is available. I downloaded it this morning and have been running eng-eng matches with R3, 2 threads. So far Houdini is holding it's own. You can download the program here.
http://www.cruxis.com/chess/houdini.htm
I think CC players now have many equally strong engines available to help with their Centaur abilities and should be interesting to see the progressions
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-17 21:20:21)
Topalov used Rybka 4 before the match
"(...) the team of Veselin Topalov would have spent 100,000 Euros to secure a 112 core computer cluster, with the latest Rybka 4 program exclusively reserved for their use until the end of the match."
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6340
Wow...
Wayne Lowrance (2010-05-18 17:05:05)
Quick review Chess Engines
And now, it is being talked that the engine is a rybka clone and therefore it's name cannot be mentioned in the Rybka forum.
Peter Marriott (2010-05-26 21:54:45)
Rybka 4!
Rybka 4 is released! Find info on http://www.rybkachess.com/index.php?auswahl=Purchase+Rybka <bf> if you wanna buy it!
Ilmars Cirulis (2010-05-26 22:11:22)
Rybka 4!
cool!
now everyone will beat me. :)
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-30 23:40:07)
Rybka 4!
So did anyone test this new version of the engine already?
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-01 22:35:19)
Rybka 4!
not impressive
Thibault de Vassal (2010-06-01 22:42:07)
Rybka 4!
Strange... many rybkaforum members will harass Vasik with questions on these performances, most probably :/
Just looking at the new CEGT rating lists, Rybka 4 would be 30 to 80 points stronger than Rybka 3 :
CEGT 40/20
1 Deep Rybka 4 x64 4CPU 3220 39 39 200 74.8% 3031 40.5%
2 Rybka 3 x64 4CPU 3181 10 10 3099 73.9% 3000 35.3%
3 Stockfish 1.7.1 x64 4CPU 3159 11 11 2201 69.1% 3019 40.3%
4 Rybka 3 x64 2CPU 3146 10 10 3481 72.6% 2977 35.7%
5 Naum 4.2 x64 4CPU 3140 15 15 1226 61.5% 3059 44.4%
CEGT 40/4
1 Rybka 4.0 x64 4CPU 3265 24 24 500 70.7% 3112 40.6%
2 Rybka 3.0 Dynamic x64 4CPU 3233 19 19 1200 79.8% 2994 25.9%
3 Rybka 3.0 x64 4CPU 3231 9 9 4300 78.0% 3012 30.2%
4 Rybka 3.0 Human x64 4CPU 3229 21 21 1000 78.8% 3001 26.8%
5 Stockfish 1.7.1 x64 4CPU 3198 13 13 2150 72.2% 3032 33.1%
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-02 01:57:19)
Rybka 4!
I am not trying to discourage anyone from buying R4, not at all, I purchased it.
I am just going by my quick blush testing, and I am not very impressed. I ran a 50 game match with fire 3.1.1 and the results were about equal.
You know guys, I would rate at R3+ as it has some of the annoying bugs fixed.
BTH. I have not yet able to get"large Pages to work" should add up to 10 elo, but not on my comp which will be somewhat less.
I will be happy to put the engine up for bronze games for evaluation,
Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-02 02:23:46)
Rybka 4!
ooops that should be Fire 1.3.1
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-06-02 02:54:02)
Rybka 4!
I did not hear about Fire 1.31 before... probably the new name of Firebird!?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-06-02 03:03:10)
Fire 1.31 vs. Rybka 4
It seems that the forthcoming match between the top chess engines will be Rybka 4 (just released) versus Fire 1.31 (a new free engine from the Ippolit/Ivanhoe/Robbolito series that may be a clone of Rybka but we still have no clue about this). By the way does anyone know the differences between Fire 1.31 and Firebird 1.2, it seems to me that only the name changed.
Of course Stockfish & Naum are in the race but it will be interesting to see if the creator of Rybka has found a way to keep its great engine above its supposed clones.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-02 16:23:43)
Rybka 4!
Fire = Firebird Thibault, my bad. I am running a match, R4-SF 50 games Nunn2 TB. interesting so far after 33 of 50 games score is +12=15-6. +64 elo strength over stockfish.
Not too bad. This Firebird engine needs looking into. I will run a Nunn2 match next.
Oh, BTW, R4 is not running with default paramaters. I have modified them. This quite fun.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-06-02 16:34:58)
Rybka 4!
No, you were right Wayne, Fire is the name... it looks like Firebird has been renamed to Fire.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-02 16:39:14)
Fire 1.31 vs. Rybka 4
Thibault the changes are, Maintanence release. Some cfg issues fixed. But I think what ever it, is stronger than 1.3.0. Just my gut feeling.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-06-02 16:43:27)
Rybka 4 wins ICT10
Rybka 4 just won the latest edition of the International Computer Chess Tournament (ICT10, 10th edition) ahead of Deep Sjeng (surprise!?) and far from the other Chessbase engines: Hiarcs, Deep Shredder and Deep Junior...
Interesting to see that Rybka (by Vasik Rajlich) only lost to Deep Sjeng (by Gian-Carlo Pascutto) and won all the other games, including against the well known Hiarcs (by Mark Uniacke) and Shredder (by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen).
Rybka 8/9
Deep Sjeng 7/9
Hiarcs 6/9
Deep Shredder 6/9
Deep Junior 5.5/9
Komodo 5/9
The other participants were Pandix, The Baron, Spark, The King, Kallisto, Almond, RedQueen and Joker.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6381
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-02 16:52:10)
Rybka 4 wins ICT10
And, the one loss came about by Server failure
Thibault de Vassal (2010-06-02 17:57:22)
Rybka 4 wins ICT10
Oh ok, thanks for the information... I didn't see that. Now I understand :)
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-06-02 20:44:57)
Rybka 4 wins ICT10
It was not Rybka 4, it was Rybka 4b3 cluster and is really different from Rybka 4.
From the chessbase note:“Note that both Rybka and Sjeng played on 128 core clusters; Junior and Hiarcs each had 12 cores, Shredder had eight.”
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-27 22:35:14)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
Howdy, I have CB Rybka (F12).
Daniel Parmet (2010-06-03 07:29:29)
Rybka 4!
Whats Nunn2?
Peter Marriott (2010-06-03 20:44:26)
Rybka 4!
Thib, Firebird was changed to Fire because someone emailed Norman and asked him to change the name because I guess a company name is Firebird...So Norman simply shortened it to "Fire". Fire 1.31 is new, but I don't think there is an elo increase.
Peter Marriott (2010-06-03 20:48:56)
Fire 1.31 vs. Rybka 4
You mean 1.2 is stronger than 1.3? I don't think so, 1.3 definitely stronger, maybe not by much, but stronger. 1.31 is a maintenance release, not 1.3. If you wanna know specifically what the improvements are, go to: http://www.chesslogik.com/fire.htm
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-04 00:39:43)
Fire 1.31 vs. Rybka 4
! implied that 1.3.1 is stronger than 1.3.0 But maybe not. I have some testing results using Nunn2 database, eng-eng.
R4- Fire: 9-6=15 I terminated match.
R4-Stockfish: 15-11=24
Not making claims for strength just my short results thus far. But I like R4, lots of settings to play with. BTW R4 settings were not default.
Kevin D. Plant (2010-06-25 12:00:56)
Fire 1.31 vs. Rybka 4
Firebird is a brand name, trademark of the Firebird Foundation Inc, so they changed it to Fire.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-25 21:03:22)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
Howdy all. I am very excited. I just learned how to use the above option found in Engine folder. All these years I have never used it, never understood it, so saw no need.
I am on Rybka forum all the time and saw this talked about. What a great tool in my opinion. Here is how it works.
How many times have you ran infinite analysis only to have to shut down or reboot etc. If you do it you loose all of Rybka analysis accumulated to that point and a complete loss of time.
For example:
suppose Rybka has been analysing for hours and is a depth 26 current. Before rebooting Rybka go to engine folder and tick "save hash" All of Rybka current positional analysis collected up to 26 is then saved in a file you create.
When you restart Rybka, load your game and go to engine folder in Rybka, tick "load hash" and start. Rybka will begin at depth 26 where it left off from your hash save.
Golly Terrific.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-06-25 21:46:41)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
Looks like a great feature, indeed. Thanks Wayne for the explanation!
Garvin Gray (2010-06-27 15:21:26)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
For which interface/program is this setting?
Peter Marriott (2010-06-28 07:20:34)
Fire 1.31 vs. Rybka 4
Sorry Wayne. I guess I didn't read the first of your post. :P
Garvin Gray (2010-06-28 12:40:37)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
Ahh good, you are using CB Rybka (F12).
CB I take it stands for chessbase.
I have been trying to following procedure in Fritz 12 to save hash, but does not seem to be working for me.
After using infinite analysis, I go to engine (home-insert- board options at the top of the gui.).
I then choose change main engine and then click on engine parameters. Do I have this right so far?
Then I click on save hash. Do I need to tick preserve analysis?
I have even tried after saving hash and then restarting F12 clicking on load hash, but nothing I seem to try gets the engine to go back to where I was with the previous analysis.
Help!
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-28 18:40:50)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
Howdy. I had all sorts of trouble with it too. I finally posted it on Rybka forum. But first, I am not sure your going about it correct. You just need to go to select new engine, then set engine parameters, and there you find save/load hash. Sounds like your getting to this point anyways.
Ok, I paste what was told me at the forum.
This is msg I get when ticking Save Hash (Save hash failed). I created a folder R4.rsh
but apparently it is not found the path is:
C:\users\administration\documents\ChessBase\nogames\EngineParameters\Deep Rybka 4x64\R4.rsh
What am I doing wrong. R4 manual no help.
Fritz12 GUI & Vsta
That was question post:
I think you need to create a file not a folder. :grin:
Nothing ventured, nothing gained...
Reply Report
this is 1 of 2 responses. Other is from Vas himself as follows.
You need to create a dummy file - you can just do that with notepad or something.
This last was from Vas.
Ok, summary :) All you have to do is create a file.rsh: (By the way, My Son stopped bye and he said "dad I will do it for you)" So he created the dummy file "file.rsh". works fine :)
Hope this helps, Wayne
Garvin Gray (2010-07-22 01:04:18)
Match Against Rybka Forum
One result:
Gray 1-0 Burch.
How are the other results going?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-07-28 16:21:55)
Match vs. ICCF
No, there were no FICGS vs. ICCF match yet. We lost our two previous matches against IGAME.RU (with engines, against a very strong team mainly from Ukraine! the site died since that time) & GAMEKNOT (without engines).
I doubt that ICCF will be interested in playing such a match (maybe Gino or anyone involved can say it), but maybe someone can throw the idea in the ICCF forum, like I did in RybkaForum... who knows after all.
Scott Nichols (2010-08-09 21:12:59)
Entry fee for higher class tournament
Just a note to say how this new rule is affecting at least one player here (me), :) I "earned" entry to a higher class tournament by winning the class just below. I paid my ten E-points and received entry into the next higher class. We have been playing for a while and I am holding my own ok. I have met new players and am overjoyed at the chance to play them. They are all friendly and welcoming. Life couldn't be better, ......but....... Maybe it's just me, but I feel at this point that I never REALLY earned my way into this realm. The old way was to suffer through months and years of climbing the rating ladder a little at a time and then finally reach that next level. Also, just my opinion, is that these days there really isn't a big difference in strengths between 1850 and 2450 given that we all have fast computers running on Rybka mostly. The difference I find is the human side of the ratings. The old days whether Shredder could beat Fritz, or Deep Junior could beat Hiarcs are long gone. So I guess what I'm trying to say without rambling any further, is that as much as I like playing in the higher section, I would prefer to "EARN" it the old way. Just one players opinion, Thank you
Kamesh Nookala (2010-08-31 16:29:58)
Latest deletions of chat
I agree,
Thib perhaps might have programmed in such a way to delete chat which is something like spam, but unfortunately all crucial chats are being deleted.
I am being pissed off more because, i often get back to the chat which took place between me and Scottie on 23rd August.... I posted about my win vs. Mark (Rybkaforum), and that got deleted too..
It needs to be rectified instantly !!
Wayne Lowrance (2010-09-24 03:54:46)
whole database transfers made simple
This has always been a sore spot for me on FICGS. I want to be able to copy my ficgs database of games to Rybka. I have gotten help from nice folks here, but I am unable to do it. There just does not seem to be the right tools at each step or understanding to do it.
I would be satisfied if a step by step procedure is posted that entails each click of the mouse with out vague procedure statements.
Daniel Parmet (2010-09-24 09:51:02)
whole database transfers madfe simple
Step one.
Click on 'search games'
Step two.
At the top you will see 'all games (pgn)' click on this to download.
Step three.
Use whatever program you have to open this file (chessbase, chess assistant, scid, etc).
Step four.
Filter this file by your name.
Step five.
Copy all the games you have here into a new pgn.
Step 6.
Run Rybka.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-09-27 01:52:53)
whole database transfers made simple
Sorry Wayne, maybe your operating system is slightly different, how do you usually save the content (web page or whatever) pointed by a hyperlink?
As for databases (notepad is not a chess database), there usually is a function to import a PGN file in a chess database.
Well, I do not use the Rybka GUI, so I may be not able to give the best answer :/
Wayne Lowrance (2010-09-27 02:32:45)
whole database transfers made simple
Gosh, it gets more troubling. I just click on it and it executes the line. I dunno what else to say. I have no know problem with this in the past. What does it say when you right click on it ? My right click brings up several link options ?......I am using Bing ! if that helps. and windows 64 deluxe. Can you just provide a simple transfer link to rybka tablebase ?
wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-09-30 13:35:58)
Next freestyle tournament
A "freestyle chess tournament" is (according to me) a chess tournament played OTB or on the internet by players using any kind of help (chess engines [Rybka, Fire, Houdini, Fritz, Shredder, whatever...], databases, other players...) with a fast time control (a few hours per game at most).
The "FICGS chess freestyle cup" is a freestyle chess tournament played on the internet...
As "correspondence" implies all freestyle features but the fast time control, freestyle 'must' probably mean played at a fast time control, or the two words would mean the same.
Well, it may be worth to add the final definition in the Help section after all :)
Sebastian Boehme (2010-10-05 04:13:26)
Match Against Rybka Forum
Just finished my game against Omprakash at Rybkaforum.
Result is a draw. See here for more, PGN included:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=16388
Daniel Parmet (2010-10-05 19:16:44)
Match Against Rybka Forum
darn I was interested in playing in this! Oh well maybe next time! Good luck guys, win!!!! Go ficgs :)
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-22 10:25:55)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Hi to all the FICGS players! In the last few days there has been in the works a strong tournament on the Rybka Forum. I know that most of you play a lot of games not only here but on others sites. I have been looking into the interest of having a type of World Chess Corr Blitz Championship. With the time controls being 2 to 3 days per move. There will be a time out or some kind of extra time system in place to get you a chance to AN critical positions. As of now there are discussions on the Rybka Forum for a Tournament Format that would be comfort to most of the players who play. I have been talking to the person who does the web design there and would are working out a new sub forum to keep this tournament organized and working a clock system so everyone can keep track of there time. I'm also having a prize fund organized to the top 10 finishers. Not so much for give money to the players, but as more a means to keep all the players interested and not have any problems with aborted games. This tournament will have 3 TD's to help with any problems that may come up. We are planing on having the tournament just after the new year. I have the interested of Wayne Lowrance and Ruben Comes has said he will play. If any are interested in playing in a World Chess Corr. Blitz Championship or if you have any questions or comments. Let know on here or your can leave a message on the rybka forum my user name is "thehug"
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-22 11:13:09)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Now I have the interest of Harvey Williamson
Garvin Gray (2010-10-22 16:59:29)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
You now have interest of Garvin Gray :)
Daniel Parmet (2010-10-22 19:44:39)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I'm interested.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-22 20:56:57)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Hi,
Gary- Thanks for your interest, I do remember to some of your replies to the FICGS vs Rybka Forum match. As you are a guy who likes some order in the matches. When I make the the pairings for the tournament I will be taking into account of ratings. And will make them fair. There are a couple of people who may not have official rating on the rybka forum, but I have a good idea of there strength :) One of them is actually playing reben a great game in the B90 a variation.
Daniel Parmet- Thanks for your interest I have you down.
Daniel Parmet (2010-10-22 21:16:49)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
When would this start and how many games/rounds?
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-23 02:39:34)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Just after the new year, It will be flexiable as I will give all the players a chance to make it the games. It will be something like a 1 to 1 1/2 week window to get all the players sign in and know what the groups would be. As of now I'm still working on how many games will be played. I will be caping it around 30 people or so give or take a couple. So I will update you on how many games. For rounds Im going to say right now it will 2 rounds as I know most don't want to drag it out to long.(If there is interested I will look into having a semi final, and championship match if people would want it.) The number of games will be flexiable for the FICGS players. As I know most of you have a lot games going on.
Sebastian Boehme (2010-10-23 02:41:41)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I would be interested in playing, in case
such details as time control (especially how this shall get done on a forum software like Rybka forum, i.e. keeping track of the time used up for a move) and tournament mode are clarified in beforehand.
Cheers,
Sebi
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-23 04:04:54)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Thanks for your interest Sebi. This is being talked about now. I will send you a link. this will be the post for the discussion about time contorl
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=19220
As we speak Dadi Jonsson the person who works on the forum. Is working on the details for a clock system. Not only that but we are going to make it a sub forum by itself so people can find there games easier. Let me know your opinion on here as we are working out all the details so it will be comfortable to all. I will being submitting the 1st proposal shortly. Thanks for your interested!
Jimmy
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-23 23:57:41)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I have the interest of Gino Figlio and a couple of other strong FICGS players Im still trying to find out witch ones they are. The FICGS side is starting to look very strong if all players will play. The tournament format is coming a long. And when I have an update I will post.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-10-24 22:57:48)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Jimmy I am following your progress. I continue my interest in the Tournament. We have discussed my thoughts via PM, but to review here are the things of concern to me. First I do not want to overload my chess obligations in Tournaments I am involved with at FICGS now. I have a hunch that a Start date at or shortly after the year will work out provided it is possible to have no more than one (1) game running at a time.
Other features of interest to a lesser degree are management/monitoring of matches to make sure that excessive time outs are infrequent. A player should not be allowed to go on vacation so to speak during a match. In the event of hardware problems a player should have to live with the timer obligations and not making a unfair match delay.
Player ratings could be considered in pairings. Somewhat like board seeds. Top rated sits at board #1 etc.
I think this can be sorted out easily.
Your have excellent inputs from others such as Vytron etc regarding timer details. 2 days/move sounds good to me Jimmy.
So continue your good work, I would be proud to participate god willing.
Wayne
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-25 01:30:27)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Thanks for your continue interested Wayne! Yeah as of now. I think we are doing a two game per round(1 white and 1 black) set. And I think there are players who will being playing a one game at time approach. And to help with the time difference we are working on a quicker format to help offset the time difference. I still believe that Havery Williamson will still consider playing if the gameload is not that great. Even if he still declines I think with yourself I have 3 or 4 players that are inside the top 25 on this site. I'm hopeful that devassal thibault can help me get the word to the other top players in a effort to get a couple more of the top 50. It will help when I finally can have a 100% idea of the format. I'll you posted on here or on the Rybka Forum. When we finally have more or all the details worked out.
Jimmy
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-25 02:42:33)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Hello Jimmy! Sure, I keep an eye on the discussions... I may spread the word when all this will be a little clearer to me (maybe I'll consider to play if I'm not too busy and if the tournament is open btw, will it be a round-robin tourney? what happens if you have too many players?) Feel free to use the chat before that though.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-25 08:28:18)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Thanks Thibault, My hope is to finish the details within the next 2 weeks. No not a round-robin, because that would simply be to much and to long. So I have gone with Vytron idea of a type of Elimination/Knockout tournament that is currently being discuss. As you are good about getting tournaments formed if you can read the current discussion and give some feedback on here or the rybka forum I would be grateful! It is in the corr chess section on the rybka forum.
Here are some of the key points and some interesting ideas that are being thrown around.
As I know most of the FICGS players play a lot of games so I have made a system that you play a 2 game match per round (One white and One Black). This would usually be a bad idea because of CC high draw rates. But we are thinking of using a unique draw odds system. Thought to many this may sounds a little strange its actually a great idea to inspire fighting chess for both sides. The idea was given by FICGS player Gino Figlio
"The scoring system idea- to draw with white (0.4), draw with black (0.6), win with white (1.0), win with black (1.1), loss with white (-0.1), loss with black (0.0)"
Another thing we are working on is the pairing system. As of now the only idea is to use a swiss pairing system after the first round.
Time Control- Since this is going to be called a "World Blitz Correspondence Chess Championship" The time controls are going to be a little faster than normal corr chess. It will be 48hr per move. But there will be a bluff time in here to help AN critical positions. This is also being debated. Right now we are looking at something between 1 weeks to 2 weeks(168 hours to 336 hours).
I had announce on the Rybka Forum in the last couple of days that a prize fund was being offer. I haven't had all my sources comeback to me yet. But as of know the fund is $1500 USD. It could be more, but I'll make official amount known before the tournament will start. I would say the winners share will be between 500 to 750. It all depends on what info I get back. I'm going to try and make all the prizes reasonable. And try and make it for the top 8 or 10 players. Also the winner will be announced the "World Blitz Correspondence Chess Champion"
I will be trying to finalize the details of the tournament in a quick fashion so I can figure out if the players interested would want to play or not. The tournament will begin just after the new year. It will be flexiable so get all the players in and know who they are playing.
The final details are that we are working hard to make the Rybka Forum really to play this kind of tournament. There is a new sub forum that will be made to help with out the traffic that would be going on with all the games. There is almost plans on getting a clock system work out. As at these time controls that would be critical.
Thanks in advance for any feedback form Thibault de Vassal and any other FICGS player!
Jimmy
Scott Nichols (2010-10-25 21:07:25)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Hi Jimmy, I left a message on your forum. That format very new to me, :)
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-25 21:16:09)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Well, I still do not understand how a scoring system can exist in a knockout tournament... but let's take an example, what the tournament will look like if you have 16 players? Best is to do a complete simulation.
As I just posted on Rybkaforum, I suggest several double round-robin class tournaments of 5 players with a longer time control (on forums I suggest 10 days + 3 days per move). The whole tournament would be played in 1 round, with less stress for everyone as I really think that 30 days + 1 day/move is the fastest acceptable correspondence chess time control.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-10-25 23:43:59)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I also do not understand scoring system, most probably both games will end in draw, is there a talk about an even faster time control for tiebreakers?
Gino Figlio (2010-10-26 00:55:48)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The proposal was based on the assumption that it was a double elimination knockout, meaning you get dropped if you lose 2 games. Since there may be a lot of draws, the new scoring system may allow to drop players with the lower scores after 2 rounds and will give more weight to better results with the black pieces. This is experimental but may stimulate more fighting chess.
Daniel Parmet (2010-10-26 01:04:19)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Wait what? You are going to drop a player that drew 2 games because they might be rated 1 pt lower? Insanity. What horrible logic.
Gino Figlio (2010-10-26 01:08:19)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Where did you read that?
Daniel Parmet (2010-10-26 01:10:12)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
oh my apologies I thought it said lower rating not lower score. You'd be surprised some people are in favor of such crazy ideas.
Gino Figlio (2010-10-26 01:17:26)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
not a problem, I'm known for my crazy proposals :)
Peter Marriott (2010-10-26 03:00:51)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I'm in.
Scott Nichols (2010-10-26 05:33:11)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I very much like the idea of giving more weight to Black, whether it is a win or draw. I agree it will make for fighting chess and possibly make White (or Black) try some different variations to go for the win.
Garvin Gray (2010-10-26 18:53:19)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I am not a fan of the Double Elimination concept for this. Does not mean that I would not participate. But since DE is being used, why not just have it as an open swiss instead?
With an open swiss, those that do not want to continue can just withdraw, instead of being eliminated. Those that want to finish the tournament can keep playing all rounds to enjoy the experience.
A couple of issues with DE that need to be explained further:
1) After round one, are the first round losers seeded to the other half of the draw so they can not meet their first round opponents again till the preliminary final.
2) For the person who gets to the Grand Final without losing a match, do they stil have to be beaten twice to be eliminated ie the winner of the preliminary final has to beat them twice to win the competition.
I have wondered how long an open swiss would actually take in competition like this and would prefer to play in that rather than a DE.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-26 19:27:17)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
An open swiss should be at least 6 rounds long, that's the main problem. I still don't get how this tournament may run, a complete simulation with 16 players would help me, definitely.
Garvin Gray (2010-10-26 19:37:21)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
TDV- An open swiss would take just as long as a DE.
In regards to your comment about not understanding how this tournament will be run, are you asking about the concept of double elimination formats as a general idea, or you do understand about DE formats and are wanting more information about this tournament specifically?
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-26 19:38:21)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Thanks to Thibault, who has what given his input into the tournament. As to the last two replies. The tournament format is an on going process. But I think the time control that has been stated by myself in just the last few hours. Is pretty reasonable to have a blitz control. 25 days per side + 10 days after move 40. That would be 60 days total. So that would be within 2 months. To be honest even if you see the games I post on there. You see even if you don't have serious tournament conditions all games were very close to finishing within 30 to 60 days.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-26 19:44:18)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Two more quick announcements.
1.The new forum for the WBCCC-->World Blitz Corr Chess Championship has been made as of last night my time. But has not been up to everyone yet. It will be soon, I'm still talking to my Technical TD about that.
2.I'll be capping the tournament very soon as to keep the numbers reasonable and to have a tournament done in a more timely fashion. I'm going to guess when its all said and done. The finally number will be between 24 to 28 players that will play. I'll being posting a list here shortly
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-26 20:11:52)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The players that have said they would play or are interested are as follows
For FICGS-
Wayne Lowrance
Garvin Gray
Daniel Parmet
Sebastian Boehme
Thibault de Vassal
Gino Figlio
Kevin Plant
Scott Nichols
and one guy called "Djevans" on my forum still trying to get a name. He has said that he is a FICGS__CHESS__FREESTYLE_CUP winner and twice finalist in the freestyle tours on chessbase. So a pretty strong player.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-10-26 21:03:53)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Yes I have committed to Jimmy, I am in
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-26 21:29:20)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
"Djevans" is David Evans, he won the FICGS__CHESS__FREESTYLE_CUP__000002
Peter Marriott (2010-10-27 00:01:33)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Hey Jimmy! I would like to play.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-27 01:07:49)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Ooooook... just read this interesting article on double elimination "knockout":
http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/sonas010704.html
I must admit I did not hear about this one before, very interesting idea even if it looks quite unnatural (I mean not "beautiful") to me and longer than the usual knockout. Anyway IMO it is probably too long for a correspondence chess tournament.
Garvin Gray (2010-10-27 03:10:37)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Now Thib sees why 6 or so round swiss would not be any longer than Double Elimination :)
Also with the DE format, the player from the winner's side has to wait a full round while the two remaining losers play their preliminary final two games.
In regards to tie breaks from second round onwards, the person who has the better score from previous rounds could have draw odds.
To explain- lets say in round one Player A wins 2-0 and Player B wins 1.5-0.5. In round two Player A and B meet. In this scenario Player A would advance if their match was drawn.
This method of tie break would count no matter what round it was. So in the Grand Final, who ever had scored the most amount of points previously would have draw odds.
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 03:22:31)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Where am i? :-p
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-27 03:34:59)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Sorry Kamesh, I didn't know if you was really to play mores games or not after reading your email. I'll put you on the list now.
Also sorry to Peter Marriot who I have on the official list on Rybka Forum :)
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 03:38:48)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Lol Jimmy,
It was more like "I am lost!" haha. AS of now, i have stopped all stuff. Just enjoying. But as your tour is scheduled somewhere in the new year, who knows I may jump in.
As of now, banging my head as to whether I should check IN into the current FICGS Freestyle or not :)
Regards
Garvin Gray (2010-10-27 04:13:32)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Kamesh, stop banging your head and enter the freestyle comp.
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 04:22:51)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
lol Gray,
i might :-o (still banging) :-p
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-27 04:37:36)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Well Kamesh, the game load is going to be pretty low. I won't pull your leg or anything :) lol
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 04:38:22)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
hahaha
Sebastian Boehme (2010-10-27 04:42:52)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I wonder whether Eros and Alberto will join this.
Might be there will soon be more interesting participants!
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-27 04:58:50)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I would love to get these two great players to play! It would be helpful that the tournament conditions be clarified. With the kind of money that could be on the line. It maybe of interest to them. But I don't think that would be the most important thing to them. I know Eros has account on the Rybka Forum, but I haven't hear form him on there so I don't know.
Scott Nichols (2010-10-27 05:17:18)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
May I ask who may we thank for putting up the prize fund?
Daniel Parmet (2010-10-27 05:21:09)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
what is the prize fund?
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-27 05:53:42)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
@Scott-Myself and a couple of other friends who love chess. By the way I send you a message on the Rybka Forum to help with game details. If you have other questions let me.
@Daniel- Right now I its 1500 USD total, but I don't have all my sources bact to me yet. So it will probably be more. I'm planing on having prizes down to 8 to 10 players, with the winner most likely will win 500 to 750 depending on final numbers. Also the winner will the World Blitz Corr Chess Championship or so I dubbed.
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 06:16:34)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Who is Eros? I don't care about names when it comes to strong chess. What I see is blood on board and fear in my opponent's eyes. May be with IDEA technology, I may have to think again :)
But, come what may, I am prepared
Oh forgot (baning my head again)
And also btw, to whom it is intended ............. :-o
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 06:24:22)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Banging*
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-27 06:28:36)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Well Kamesh, maybe playing on the Rybka Forum has brought you luck :), BTW interesting game between you and Vytron
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 06:35:12)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Well not really.
I am sorry if am being candid in stating that my first access to corr world is FICGS. It created the best impression which even ICCF could not. I am confident that your efforts will bring a great change to the rybkaforum. Keep the spirits high my friend, come what may :)
As far as my game vs Vytron, I am not sure where it is leading me
Garvin Gray (2010-10-27 06:37:02)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The games could always be played on ficgs :)
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-27 06:48:42)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Not at all my friend, Kamesh. I was joining you with humor. I can understand the feeling of playing in your first place like this.
@Garvin- With all the efforts to play it on Rybka Forum I don't know if I could change it. If the tournament is successful I may consider playing the next one on here. Of course I would have to talk to Thibault about that.
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 06:53:20)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I just expressed my opinion Jimmy. You are trying to organize a major event. Am commending ur efforts. Keep pushing. Especially, am flattered when ya said ya and few others wud be sponsoring the prize fund. Who does that? So, ya too made ur impression.
All the best Jimmy, go go go go ....
:)
Scott Nichols (2010-10-27 19:47:48)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Thibault is also offering a generous prize for freestyle tournament this weekend. We would welcome any Rybka forum players to come and compete!
Kamesh Nookala (2010-10-27 20:15:05)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I will only play to win if the prize is an EVGA SR-2 mobo and 2 Xeon processors :-p
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-27 22:24:14)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Tho this is only a minor note the new forum was made and is open now. Look for WBCCC on the front page of the forum
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-28 05:16:30)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I've been given it some thought the last couple of days and have came with an update. My last proposal was to do a 2 game a round swiss tournament. I've post it here
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=19220;pg=3
Look at the bottom of the page for all the details. You can give your input here. Or if you have an amount you can post it there
Wayne Lowrance (2010-10-28 05:22:18)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
the above url does not seem to work,
Wayne
Peter Marriott (2010-10-28 05:44:56)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
it works for me...
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-28 05:46:01)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
If not this one works go to pg 3 and its on the bottom
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=19220
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 05:21:56)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Just to let everyone know I've added a standing page and an unique commentary and recap page for fans and players a like a chance to look at all the game a little deeper. I'll invite any of the strong players to comment on the games as they go. As long as they don't give moves away that may affect the game. I thought this would add to unique style of the tournament.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 11:40:25)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The tournament format has been decide. It will be a 2 game a round swiss tournament. Now my working on a pairing system as we spoke. I've been told by garvin gray that he is an official FIDE arbiter who has the latest programs to be used on swiss tournaments. I'll keep that in mind going forward. As everyone here has official rating. It will be my job to work something out with the other players on my forum who don't have ratings. This being a Swiss tournament with having a chance to play with both colors. I should be about to just do subjective pairings and be fine. I have a pretty good idea of were the players stand rating wise. I hope everyone is really for an competitive and enjoyable tournament!
Jimmy
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-29 12:27:09)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
That's better than a DE knockout IMO! .. and finally what about the time control?
Garvin Gray (2010-10-29 12:50:29)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
With it being two games and a swiss, the initial ratings do not matter so much.
Players will get sorted pretty quickly. With using total game points as the first pairing criteria, each score group will have less players, meaning that most of the time there will only be two or three players in each score group, rather than 10 or twelve like in an over the board tournament.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 12:54:10)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
well to keep within a 2 month point I thought of 25 days a side with 10 more days after 40 moves. That seems pretty reasonable even with 2 games with the same person. As a interesting side note Kevin Plant has sent an email to ICCF GM Arno Nickle if he would have any interests in playing in this event. I doubt that there not many people who don't know who this very strong corr player is.
Garvin Gray (2010-10-29 13:38:24)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Are the 10 days repeating, so after 80 moves the players receive another 10 days?
If not, then I can see major issues with players running out of time in long games, if for the only reason of time difference between countries around the world.
I would advise a time control of something like 14 days plus 2 days per move.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-29 13:58:51)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I must say that 25 days a side with 10 more days after 40 moves is really frightening to me, even with a single game... but maybe I'm really slow. I agree with Garvin, but of course the nature of the tournament (6 rounds) is in question again then.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 14:00:52)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
so 10 days for every 20 moves after move 40?
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 14:03:40)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Even that would probably keep it with in something like a year.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-29 14:10:20)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
25 days for 40 moves is too fast, definitely... In my game at Rybkaforum (with SpiderG) I had to take 5 days (maybe more) for a single move sometimes, and unfortunately that was not always to analyze it.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 14:18:04)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
well I guess something like 25 days for 30 moves could be possible as only to think that most of the 30 moves could be opening book depending on which opening is choice. Then 10 to 15 days per 20 moves after that. I guess I should follow the time controls here a little closer
Garvin Gray (2010-10-29 14:33:12)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The rapid tournaments here use 30 days plus 1 day per move ie person starts with an initial 30 days, then for each move they receive an extra 1 day.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 14:33:16)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I've trying to look at the other players games for the Rybka Forum match. I got the feeling that most players made there moves fairly quickly. I would say there are players who think that 5 days a moves isn't blitz time controls.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-29 14:38:24)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The problem is: Sometimes (Scott knows it), it is possible to play a complete corr. game [more than 60 moves] in about 30 hours! But sometimes it takes 8 months... Believe me, if I chose 30 days + 1 day/move as the fast time control at FICGS, it is because faster was not possible. And that's why there is a WCH cycle every 6 to 8 months, no more.
Garvin Gray (2010-10-29 14:42:27)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Jimmy- I think it is extremely unlikely that any kind of correspondence tournament can finish in one year, unless you have an extremely short time control and are willing to have many games time out. It is just the nature of the beast with players from all over the world.
Also, what Thib means is that a new WCH cycle starts every 8 months, not that the WCH cycle takes 8 months to complete.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-29 14:46:09)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Sure, sorry... I meant one round takes 6 to 8 months.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 14:48:56)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I see the flexiable of playing something like 30 days + 1 day/move. My intend was to try and make a tournament within say 60 to 70 as a max. But that probably means this is more a tournament for players that make a move 1 to 2 days at a time
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 14:50:06)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Sorry quoted per round of 60 to 70 days
Garvin Gray (2010-10-29 14:54:31)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Each tournament is slightly different and if a faster time control is used, then players will adjust. Just like playing rapid time controls in otb chess.
It is advertised as a blitz tournament, so of course the time controls will be shorter than the normal type of corro time control. All I have been trying to do is point out issues relating to players competing from different parts of the world.
I am certainly one of those who would be seriously affected by using the 40 move time control you have suggested previously.
I live in Brisbane Australia, so most of my opponents will be at least 4 to 8 hours at least behind me, so it is very common for me to receive moves in the middle of the night, or have a whole batch of moves awaiting me when I wake up.
This can mean that I already start with losing about 8 hours on the clock before I even get to look at a position.
I accept this in the time controls on here because that is just how it is and I am not that disadvantaged as it works the other way where I reply and my opponents are asleep/at work.
But under the 40 move time control posted, I would be severely affected and my only 'crime' would be living in Australia.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 14:58:17)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I would agree with your assignments. I was thinking about 25 days to 30 moves as most of that is possibly opening then 10 to 15 days for 20 moves?
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-29 15:11:05)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I know Wayne has told me that he is trying to draw some of his games. Before my tournament starts. What he is doing is honorable. But I don't wish for others to have to do drastic things to play in this tournament. So I'll try to adjust the best I can.
Daniel Parmet (2010-10-29 19:58:13)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
of course you talked about this tournament starting in Jan correct? so we all have time to finish some of our games before then.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-30 01:02:41)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Your right Daniel, some players will have games finish by then. By now I understand what is being talked about, by not having time on the end to have for the endgame. I'm thinking of some kind of adjustment like after the 30 move mark to have something like 15 days per 20 move after that so players don't get kill by the time
Ramil Germanes (2010-10-30 10:30:27)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Sir Jimmy: Please include me if I'm qualified. I want to join the tournament. Thanks!
Ramil Germanes (2010-10-30 10:50:47)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
What will I need to do so I can join the rybka tournament?
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-30 11:24:51)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
go to the rybka forum http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/forum_show.pl Get a user name and leave me a post on the forum with WBCCC or just sent me a message
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-30 11:27:56)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
my user name is Thehug, The tournament will begin in January. Be prepare as the name subjects its going to be a Blitz Corr Tournament. So most players will make a move a day or over other day
Ramil Germanes (2010-10-30 12:15:28)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
ok thanks!
Ramil Germanes (2010-10-30 12:29:44)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
@ Sir Jimmy: Already sent you a pm at the rybka forum. My name at rybka forum is "ralunger". Hope you will include me in the tournament. Thanks!
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-30 12:35:35)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Your in I wrote you down
Ramil Germanes (2010-10-30 12:37:57)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Thank you sir!
Garvin Gray (2010-10-30 12:38:50)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Hope my name has been written down lol
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-30 12:41:38)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
It is, I have official list I just edit it on the rybka forum I'll update it today sometime
Thibault de Vassal (2010-10-30 21:32:50)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Jimmy, will you apply strict rules during the tournament? What happens if a player suddenly takes 2 days, then 3 days, then 4 days for each move? Will there be a flag applied by the forum software or by the tournament director?
As there may be obvious problems in both cases, I'm really curious to know how you'll handle it. Also will players have a few days of vacation?
Jimmy Huggins (2010-10-31 13:27:35)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Your right Thib, there are going to be some risks in playing in this kind of tournament. I had to think about a lot of things. I would love to do a round robin system as this is probably the most flexible of all of them. By a majority was against it because there would just be to many games to play and not enough time to go around for all of them. I to have a lot of ideas to make a swiss system work. I believe with the input I have gotten back. That all the players that are playing are going to play and if they couldn't that wouldn't play. I know as well as you that in the end there really isn't one system that is 100% prefect. And you just have to make adjustments. Dadi Jonsson is working very hard to get the time system to work 100%. So yes the flag will be in. If not then such a tournament probably couldn't happen.
Garvin Gray (2010-10-31 14:41:18)
Creating an opening book
No, I do not except people to give away their opening secrets, but I was wondering.
How does one create an opening book? I have just been changing options in the fritz or rybka books from green to red and vice versa, but I assume that quite a lot of the decent players on here have proper opening books.
What process did you go through to create these books?
Sebastian Boehme (2010-10-31 20:11:04)
Creating an opening book
Hi Garvin,
Book making ia for example in my case always been a very time-intense and manually tuned process. I never do import any outside games to my book.
Guidelines on how to starting out in creating an opening book you can find (or probably have already found), here:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=11798
That site got some useful links
General rule of thumb, work on each system one by one. My favourite example: I as white play 1. e4 and Black replies 1....f5, so the Elephant Gambit arises.
Now I want to find good white moves for it, so I enable in my Book allow move adding and check my Correspondence and Playchess Games database for the replies of white. Also I see what major engines think about the moves offered by the database in say 1-2 minute analysis and what these engines themselves gotta offer. This way a reply to the elephant gambit (or maybe more) for move 2 of white can be found.
Also not in any case 1-2 minute analysis will be sufficient. You need to figure this out for yourself.
The less time intensive process: Create a database where you import games filtered by very well chosen criteria (for instance recent games i.e. 2008-2010). Then import the database games into a new empty book.
That's all I know about how it could be done.
Sebi
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 09:18:34)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Oh ok here is another Time Control proposal. 25 days per side to move 30 and 15 days per side for the next time control. Would move 30 be good to reach the time control? As most books should get you to move 20 or so and would you have enough time. If this blitz corr chess.
Garvin Gray (2010-11-02 09:25:13)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The issue is not whether extra time is added after move 30 or 40, that is kinda irrelevant compared to what appears to be a final 15 days after move 30/40. That is the biggest issue and something that needs to be solved before the tournament can go ahead until any reasonable conditions.
Either after move 30/40, there is a re-occuring amount of time just like from move 30 ie 30 moves in 25 days, followed by 30 moves in 25 days repeating, or like we use on here for rapids, 30 moves initial plus 1 move per day increment.
The final time period can not be guillotine for all the reasons previously discussed regarding time zones.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-11-02 09:33:25)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I agree with Garvin there.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 09:46:20)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Oh ok I have talk about about 30 days+ 1day as an option. As talking to you two. You have given me a lot of input. I think you Gray are a pretty fast player by most measures so on avg oh long can your games go at this time control? I really don't mind corr games going 2 or 3 months or so. As Thib pointed out some games at this control can go 8 months which to be honest isn't an option. I think I heard Gray say once something about 14days + 2days per move. Would that be a blitz control?
Again one to point out there not going to be a flag or something for taking 4, 5 days. The times will go as usually.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 10:05:38)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I know most of the players that have said they would play usually move pretty fast.
Garvin Gray (2010-11-02 10:28:10)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
At 30 days plus 1 days, I think about 3 months is a fair average.
I am not sure if I am a fast player or not. I do use most of my time across all games, but that does not mean I am looking at all games all the time.
For just a two game match, I would have no issues with 30 days plus 1 day increment and it would not feel fast to me.
14 days plus 2 days per move I think is a better time control for a few reasons.
It will let the organisers know for certain early who will lose their games on time ie two weeks from when the round starts, so decisions about whether to let them continue or kick those players out can be made earlier.
With a 2 day increment, it does give some opportunity for players to analyse for a bit of time in endgames.
If you are wanting to avoid unnecessary delays, the easiest way to it to have rule that as soon as a game reaches a 6 man tablebase position, the result will be declared.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-11-02 10:33:17)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
14 days + 2 days / move is much longer than 30 days + 1 day / move. Maybe 20 days + 1 day / move, or 10 days + 1 day / move could be ok... 1 day increment is the strict min. 10 days initial clock is min as well IMO. So a game could last ~180 days at most = 6 months anyway !
Honestly, maybe you should give up the idea that everyone (eg. me) should be able to play, if you think that most players interested are ready to play a really fast corr. time control, maybe you should do it this way but IMO an increment less than 12 hours may lead to many losses on time.
Garvin Gray (2010-11-02 10:42:21)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
TDV- Honestly, maybe you should give up the idea that everyone (eg. me)
GG- Who is you? in the quote above?
Thibault de Vassal (2010-11-02 10:44:26)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
You = Jimmy (does the whole sentence mean something? sorry my english still weak :/)
Garvin Gray (2010-11-02 10:46:48)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Its alright. Sometimes I just like to clarify matters. In this example, I was not sure if you meant me or Jimmy as you had replied straight after my post and so could have been directing the YOU at me, instead of Jimmy.
Probably the best course of action to avoid confusion in multiple person replying topics is to refer to people by name, rather than just using you or he.
:)
Garvin Gray (2010-11-02 10:47:06)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
And, I am sure your English is better than my French :P
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 10:50:48)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I can always say you have a very honest opinion. I can bet even if you decide not to play. You will be watching with interest. I know players like Wayne Lowrance liked the idea of a little faster controls. Gino, Scott, and David Evans like to play a little bit faster controls. And they will make this a very strong tournament anyway. And yes the add one day per move looks to be the min. It will just be looking at the total time.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 10:53:01)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
My above comment was at Thib
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 15:37:29)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Your doing a good job Garvin, everyone thought your idea of ending the game at 6 man tablebase positions was great 100%. And you more or less suggested the 2 game a Round Swiss was taken very well to. Maybe I should let you be my TD lol. I think I can let you do my Pairings to if you want. My only question to you is what rating list would be the best to use? As far as the ratings of the Rybka Forum players I'll have to give you my ideal ratings for them.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-11-02 16:33:06)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Nice idea Garvin, (6 man). It means a lot of work for some one to check it. Not all players I think have very many six man, including me (about 30 of em). How would that workout ?
Wayne
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 16:57:23)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I don't think this would be as hard as you think. There as 6 man tablebases online that can easily do that. Here an example
http://chessok.com/?page_id=361
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-02 16:58:34)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Sorry for my horrible english sometimes. The above link would work well for it.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-11-02 20:48:21)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
For 6 man tablebases, there is also:
http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html
Wayne Lowrance (2010-11-02 22:18:30)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
yep, I am aware of both sites. That is not the problem as I see it.
Those sites are good if you have arrived at 6 man positions. The problem occurs far before that during analysis. Example player(a) in deep analysis with his hardware/programs determines that a 6 man tablebase will occur and player (b) with his hardware/program is unable to verify that and thus will object to 6 man ruling as He cannot verify it.
Not much time will be saved I am afraid if the game continue until the current position is a 6 man position.
Of course a lot of communication can resolve it for player (b) but that is a big work load for someone. So I am very much in favor of the idea, but do not see clear solution to it.
Wayne
Garvin Gray (2010-11-02 23:50:43)
Newest/oldest posts first
How is the concept of top posting going? We are now at over 100 posts in the rybka tourney thread and it is getting tedious having to scroll down all the time, just to read the last few posts.
If there was top posting, then the latest posts that I want to see would be visible first.
Wayne Lowrance (2010-11-03 18:28:57)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Okey Dokie, Garvin & Jimmy. Sounds good. It will save some time.
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-11-03 17:52:48)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Finally I added a "last post" link for Garvin & deleted the other thread that could bring some confusion in the discussion...
Garvin Gray (2010-11-03 11:16:59)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Wayne, not sure much can be done about the situations you are talking about. I guess they are just how it is when games are being played with tablebases.
I still think my suggestion will knock off some time from each round.
Perhaps, what could occur is that one player claims either for win or draw and the arbiter investigates by asking the other player how they plan to get their desired result.
I know this sounds rather wishy washy instead of being a nice formulated rule, but I am not trying to post a forumulated rule at this stage, until I know if I am going to be person responsible for pairings, being arbiter etc.
Garvin Gray (2010-11-03 11:17:16)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
By the way Jimmy, you have a pm on rybka forum.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-03 11:47:37)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Yeah you will be helping me with it. I would say that to make things easier just remember you will be my arbiter. I sent you an PM that will explain somethings. I will change the words to make it easier for everyone to understand
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-03 11:59:49)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
All is explained now between my message back to you and I edited what was on the forum. Thank you for you help
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-04 13:15:38)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Garvin I sent you another PM. Maybe you can give me your 2 cents worth
Garvin Gray (2010-11-05 02:09:05)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
The last pm I got from you was about the order of players and who has entered.
I have received nothing since then.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-06 03:44:55)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Well Thib it looks like a lot of people like the idea of doing 30days + 1day per move. That may open the door for you to play if you wanted to.
Garvin Gray (2010-11-06 06:19:34)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Jimmy,
Possible slight change to start date proposal.
I would like to see the competition either start on December 1 (one month earlier), or on about January 14.
The reason for this is to try and reduce the impact of Christmas. If the competition starts on January 1, games could time out without people even knowing that they started due to being on holidays.
Perhaps starting earlier might be helpful as it means the competition starts while there is the current momentum for it.
But middle January is also good as it will give a chance for the new ficgs ratings to be used.
I think it would also be prudent about a week before the start of round one to personally contact all the participants and get them to confirm they are playing. Only those that confirm their participation will be paired for round one.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-06 07:30:29)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
You make a good point about Christmas and even sometimes people do things on the New Year. I have to probably go with the January 14th idea. If only because I would like to give Dadi as much time as he needs to get the clock system to work. By I will leave a line on the Forum and see what people say. As for the give a week to get play to reply. I had already decide on that. I will be so much easily to do it that way. As to have to repair 2 or 3 times.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-11-06 15:00:19)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
Hi Jimmy, good news! I'm sure that this format will attract more players.
Mircea Hrubaru (2010-11-06 15:05:31)
Strong Tournament at Rybka Forum
I am also interested in participating.
Garvin Gray (2010-11-07 11:23:10)
rybka 4 opening book
Hello all,
I downloaded the Rybka 4 opening book and have had no end of problems trying to make it work.
I have read the rybka forums on adaptors and how to install, but they make about as much sense to me as a foreign language does.
I have contacted chessok and now am in back and forth emails about this topic and my dis-satisfaction with the products.
Is someone able to explain how to get the rybka 4 opening book to work in aquarium and Fritz 12 in really simple language. No coding please.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-07 19:03:11)
rybka 4 opening book
Did you buy the Aquarium Rybka 4 book or just one called Rybka 4 Opening book? If not I maybe able to help. Sent me a PM and I can give you some assistants
Garvin Gray (2010-11-08 09:47:13)
rybka 4 opening book
I bought the Aquarium Rybka 4 book. Big mistake as I do not like Aquarium, but anyways it was my mistake and I am still determined to work in Aquarium how to load the Aquarium opening book.
And I have also had no luck with the adaptor provided. I found the threads on RybkaChess useless as they were too technial for me.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-11-08 16:34:09)
rybka 4 opening book
Hello Mr Gray did you check the info from here: http://aquariumchess.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Using+the+Rybka+4+Aquarium+Opening+Book&structure=Technical+info , maybe it helps.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-11-08 16:51:04)
rybka 4 opening book
I sent you a PM that may help you.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-11-24 14:26:24)
If you plan on playing in the WBCCC
Hi Rolf :)
WBCCC stands here for "World Blitz Correspondence Chess Championship"
See this forum at Rybkaforum.net for all informations:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/board_show.pl?bid=32
Thibault de Vassal (2010-12-07 08:54:50)
Eros Riccio vs Eros Riccio in WCH 5 ?
Be sure that I'll keep an eye on it (definitely I cannot play, my game vs. SpiderG at Rybkaforum shows how slow I am :/) I'm sure to learn from this experience though!
Jimmy Huggins (2010-12-07 19:16:41)
Who's the favorite in the WBCCC?
This is just a poll to see what others think. I had do I similar on the Rybka Forum, but seeing there would have be bias base on each forum I decide to do one on each one.
So the question is simple.
Who do you think among the FICGS side will have the best finish? choices--->
Wayne Lowrance
Gino Figlio
Sebastian Boehme
David Evans
Ruben Comes
Scott Nichols
Daniel Parmet
Kevin Plant
Ramil Germanes
Peter Marriott
Daniel Parmet
Hrubaru Mircea
To my knowledge that is everyone on this side. Since there is no poll option just post a name and if you want give an answer. Pairing will be posted in less than 3 weeks. Good Luck to everyone playing! and I'll try to keep the forum posted on updates as the tourney goes a long.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-12-07 20:33:27)
Who's the favorite in the WBCCC?
One note I forgot to mention... I can bet this will add some spice to this tourney. I'm going to talk to the rybka team about a chance for the winner of the tournament a chance to play a 2 game match against the rybka cluster. You can call it some kind of Centaur Champion vs Cluster Grand Championship. Of course there is still work to be done for this to happen. By I thought the players would be interested to know that.
Hannes Rada (2010-12-15 21:56:00)
Chess positions too complex for engines
Hi Thibault,
Thank you for the examples.
I do not agree with your position against Peter Schuster. Almost every engine is now playing Qe2 i.o. Tb1 ?
So the engines now 'understand' this position a little bit.
Your position against Wolfgang Utesch is a classical fortress and indeed a bit funny. Here all engines show +5 and Rybka even +6 .... :-)
The 'tragedy' here is not the final position, but the fact the engines would go for such a position in their analysis, as it seems to be a clear win for white. I would file this under typical missing endgame understanding.
I.e. Rybka still does not understand wrong bishop endgames....
Scott Nichols (2010-12-15 23:20:40)
Chess positions too complex for engines
Hi Thib. This is one of the main games I had in mind when I responded to your quote.
http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=tournament&tournament=FICGS__CHESS__BLITZ_SILVER__000019
Or Game #40749
After 50. ...Be2 Rybka could only think of lines keeping the King close to the g4 pawn. Try it yourself anybody, the engine just didn't get it. It was a blitz game, but even at that time control I could see that my black Bishop could guard against the pawn advance from afar. So the winning strategy was to march the King to the other side of the board and escort the a-pawn to the queening square. This idea obviously was far beyond the engines horizon. After that game, my respect for Rybka's endgame play went down considerably.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-12-29 11:37:07)
WBCCC news
I just got great word form Dadi Jonsson are Tech guy at Rybka. That are playing arena is in beta testing as we speak! And there is an 80% of be successful!
Thibault de Vassal (2010-12-29 14:04:23)
WBCCC news
I think it is about the implementation of the Xfcc client protocol at Rybkaforum.
Jimmy Huggins (2010-12-29 23:17:16)
WBCCC news
That maybe, But I went a head and posted the message I got for him on the Rybka site here.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20039
Gino Figlio (2010-12-30 02:58:07)
WBCCC news
I doubt it will be XFCC based since the rybka forum does not support it as far as I know and the remote playing module will interact with the rybka forum to update the games.
I believe this is similar to the remoteschach.de setup where you have the option to send your moves from your computer via a remote program.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2010-12-31 03:11:28)
Cluster Rybka
Anyone here interested?
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20058
David Ang (2010-12-31 07:48:11)
Cluster Rybka
I don't think this is going to end well. Unless he has figure out already what clients he has. If you look at the poll that was taken. You will see that it was over 60 no's and 2 yes. We had joke that Vas was one of the yes's
Wayne Lowrance (2011-01-01 00:56:19)
Rybka forum options box
Any one know how to do it. Or could some one pm either Dadi or Felix to reload my Rybka account defaults/ I am unable to do it
Thank you
Wayne
George Clement (2011-01-03 22:59:50)
Rybka forum options box
Wayne, just login to the forum, go to options on the very top line and set what you want.
keoki010
Jimmy Huggins (2011-01-04 22:01:10)
WBCCC Pairings for Round 1 will be here
Hello to everyone, With in the next 12 to 24 hours the pairings for round 1 of the WBCCC will be known. I have a couple of other things to post here as well. 1.I will be running a commentary page here.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=19300
I invite all the FICGS players to follow. There fellow FICGS combatants in play and I and a couple of others will be doing live commentary as the games go on. I hope to see you ya there! (Thib, I know you will let your presents be know when you can ;)
The 2nd thing to be noted is the info the new software that is being used. All the info for that is here. Look below on the page and you will see my name with the info on it.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20068;pg=2
Good luck to everyone.
P.S. I will try to remember to use your real name on here. When I post to make it easier to follow for everyone else. I'll try to have an update as games finish to let everyone know what going on.
Garvin Gray (2011-01-05 02:13:43)
WBCCC Pairings for Round 1 will be here
Click on this link if you wish to see the pairings in a more user friendly format: http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=300666;msg=ReplyPost
No Name Rtg Total Result Name Rtg Total
1 LOWRANCE, Wayne (1) 2488 [0] : RALUNGER, (18) 2122 [0]
2 VYTRON, (19) 2120 [0] : LOBOESTEPARIO, (2) 2438 [0]
3 MOZ, (3) 2345 [0] : DEKA, (20) 2110 [0]
4 PARMET, Daniel (21) 2087 [0] : BOEHME, Sebastian (4) 2327 [0]
5 NATIONAL12, (5) 2290 [0] : MARRIOTT, Peter (22) 2079 [0]
6 SCHACHMATT, (23) 2063 [0] : OMPRAKASH, (6) 2285 [0]
7 ELDRIDGE, Mark (7) 2271 [0] : WEIRWINDLE111, (24) 2050 [0]
8 STEPHANIE, (25) 2000 [0] : CÓMES, Rubén (8) 2260 [0]
9 BALABACHI, (9) 2257 [0] : JITAN, (26) 1900 [0]
10 NATMAKU, (27) 1900 [0] : CUMNORCHESSCLUB, (10) 2246 [0]
11 KEOKI010, (11) 2209 [0] : TOMSKI1981, (28) 1900 [0]
12 WIGHT054, (29) 1855 [0] : SEKOS, (12) 2200 [0]
13 NICHOLS, Scott (13) 2199 [0] : INDRAJIT_SG, (30) 1800 [0]
14 DONKASAND, (31) [0] : EVANS, David (14) 2197 [0]
15 PPIPPER, (15) 2160 [0] : FULCRUM2000, (32) [0]
16 MARGE, Anne (33) [0] : SCHACHPROFI, (16) 2150 [0]
17 NOOKASH, Kamesh (17) 2147 [0] : THEHUG, (34) [0]
No Name Rtg Total Result Name Rtg Total
1 DEKA, (20) 2110 [0] : LOWRANCE, Wayne (1) 2488 [0]
2 LOBOESTEPARIO, (2) 2438 [0] : PARMET, Daniel (21) 2087 [0]
3 RALUNGER, (18) 2122 [0] : MOZ, (3) 2345 [0]
4 BOEHME, Sebastian (4) 2327 [0] : VYTRON, (19) 2120 [0]
5 WEIRWINDLE111, (24) 2050 [0] : NATIONAL12, (5) 2290 [0]
6 OMPRAKASH, (6) 2285 [0] : STEPHANIE, (25) 2000 [0]
7 MARRIOTT, Peter (22) 2079 [0] : ELDRIDGE, Mark (7) 2271 [0]
8 CÓMES, Rubén (8) 2260 [0] : SCHACHMATT, (23) 2063 [0]
9 TOMSKI1981, (28) 1900 [0] : BALABACHI, (9) 2257 [0]
10 CUMNORCHESSCLUB, (10) 2246 [0] : WIGHT054, (29) 1855 [0]
11 JITAN, (26) 1900 [0] : KEOKI010, (11) 2209 [0]
12 SEKOS, (12) 2200 [0] : NATMAKU, (27) 1900 [0]
13 FULCRUM2000, (32) [0] : NICHOLS, Scott (13) 2199 [0]
14 EVANS, David (14) 2197 [0] : MARGE, Anne (33) [0]
15 THEHUG, (34) [0] : PPIPPER, (15) 2160 [0]
16 SCHACHPROFI, (16) 2150 [0] : DONKASAND, (31) [0]
17 INDRAJIT_SG, (30) 1800 [0] : NOOKASH, Kamesh (17) 2147 [0]
Jimmy Huggins (2011-01-11 19:49:20)
WBCCC Pairings for Round 1 will be here
If you have the new Aquarium 4.06. You can now test the new software! Just leave a post here. http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20068 and sent a message to Dadi Jonsson that you would like to get your user name and password to use the new software.
Jai Prakash Singh (2011-01-13 07:17:14)
Cluster Rybka
The rates are too high.
Thibault de Vassal (2011-01-18 15:24:39)
Houdini 1.5 leads TCEC comp. chess tourn
Advanced chess "centaur" players should be interested by the following:
A "super" tournament for computers, named TCEC, just started. Premier Division finals started with the participation of the world's top engines.
Tournament format: double round robin
The participants:
1 Houdini 1.5
2 Rybka 4.0
3 Shredder 12.0
4 Stockfish 2.0.1
5 Naum 4.2
6 Ivanhoe B47cB
7 Hiarcs 13.2
8 Critter 0.9
I don't know much on this tournament, actually it may be a CCRL/SSDF system-like but as a tournament (and without rating list?), anyway thus it was able to reach the chess news in Chessdom & Susan Polgar blogspot.
The point is that the supposed "possible" Rybka-clones Ivanhoe & Houdini (both based on Ippolit, just like Firebird) entered the race... and Houdini is leading already, ahead of Rybka.
It is announced that Rybka 4 is playing, does anyone know who's behind this version of Rybka and what is the hardware? Does Vasik Rajlich know about that?
http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2011/01/houdini-15-leads-tcec-computer-super.html
http://www.chessdom.com/news-2011/computer-chess-live-2011
http://www.tcec-chess.org/
Jimmy Huggins (2011-01-18 21:11:52)
Following the WBCCC games Round 1
With less than 3 hours to go for the WBCCC Round 1 to begin. I will help everyone out here to follow what games they want to follow. Here are all the links for games.
B=Board, this is so you know who is at the top table and so on.
()=There real name on here if its needed.
B1-Wayne Lowerance vs ralunger(Ramil Germanes)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20187
B2-Uly(Vytron) vs Loboestepario(Gino Figlio)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20188
B3-Moz vs deka
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20191
B4-parmetd (Daniel Parmet) vs Sebastian Boehme
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20192
B5-National12 vs SpiderG (Peter Marriott)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20193
B6-Schachmatt (Matt O'Brein) vs Omprakash
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20194
B7-Mark Eldridge vs Weirwindle
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20195
B8-stepanie vs Ruben Comes
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20196
B9-Balabachi vs jitan
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20197
B10-Natmaku vs CumnorChessClub (Kevin E. Plant)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20198
B11-Keoki010 (George Clement) vs Tomski1981
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20199
B12-CumnorChessClub(Kevin E.Plant) vs wight054
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20215
B13-Scott Nichols vs indrajit_sg
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20201
B14-donkasand vs David Evans
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20202
B15-ppipper vs Fulcrm2000
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20203
B16-Anne-Marge vs SchachProfi (Alex)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20204
B17-Kamesh(Kamesh Nookala) vs TheHug(Jimmy Huggins)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20225
Everyone plays 2 games in our Swiss style format per round. This is everyone's 2nd game.
B1-deka vs Wayne Lowrance
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20206
B2-Loboestepario(Gino Figilo) vs parmetd(Daniel Parmet)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20207
B3-ralunger(Ramil Germanes) vs Moz
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20208
B4-Sebastian Boehme vs Uly(Vytron)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20209
B5-Weirwindle vs National12
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20210
B6-Omprakash vs stephanie
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20211
B7-SpiderG(Peter Marriott) vs Mark Eldridge
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20212
B8-Ruben Comes vs Schachmatt(Matthew O'Berin)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20213
B9-Tomski1981 vs Balabachi
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20214
B10-CumnorChessClub(Kevin E.Plant) vs wight054
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20215
B11-jatin vs keoki010(George Clement)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20217
B12-Sekos vs natmaku
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20219
B13-Fulcrum2000 vs Scott Nichols
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20220
B14-David Evans vs Anne-Marge
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20221
B15-TheHug(Jimmy Huggins) vs ppipper
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20222
B16-SchachProfi (Alex) vs donkasand
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20223
B17-indrajit_sg vs Kamesh(Kamesh Nookala)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20224
This should make it easier for everyone to follow the games. Please leave comments for the players. They will would very much like it. I will try to update the forum as games go on and finish.
Jimmy Huggins (2011-01-18 21:32:48)
Following the WBCCC games Round 1
The undertaking of the software was very good! I was ever impressive with not only the Xxcfplay client, but the software being used to post all the moves to the Rybka Forum. Once a move is made it makes it to the threads you see above in just about a minute or less. Considering the time they had I gave them a A++.
Thibault de Vassal (2011-01-21 21:57:28)
Houdini 1.5 leads TCEC comp. chess tourn
Houdini 1.5 : 24 pts, Rybka 4 : 23 pts
Things are still unclear in this engines tournament...
Scott Nichols (2011-01-22 20:40:13)
Houdini 1.5 leads TCEC comp. chess tourn
Is it over, or do Rybka & Houdini have a playoff?
Thibault de Vassal (2011-01-22 20:49:23)
Houdini 1.5 leads TCEC comp. chess tourn
Ah, maybe it was finished already... So Houdini wins with no loss! Bad score for Hiarcs 13.2 & Naum 4.2 :/ Dunno what can be concluded from all this, we all knew that Rybka & Houdini are the best engines nowadays.
N Engine Pts SB
1 Houdini 1.5 24.0 147.00 1= == == == 11 1= 1=
2 Rybka 4.0 23.0 128.00 0= 0= =1 11 10 1= =1
3 Stockfish 2.0.1 20.0 128.00 == 1= 0= =0 == 11 =1
4 Ivanhoe B47cB 17.0 115.00 == =0 1= =0 =1 01 ==
5 Critter 0.9 17.0 114.50 == 00 =1 =1 == 01 ==
6 Shredder 12.0 12.0 91.50 00 01 == =0 == == ==
7 Naum 4.2 12.0 80.50 0= 0= 00 10 10 == ==
8 Hiarcs 13.2 11.0 91.50 0= =0 =0 == == == ==
Thibault de Vassal (2011-01-30 21:07:31)
Eros on his win in the 4th chess WCH
Eros Riccio kindly accepted to answer a few questions on his win in the 4th FICGS chess WCH, and explained how one particular game influenced another one that he finally won:
- Hi Eros, first of all congratulations for your latest outstanding results at FICGS, you won the Freestyle tournament, now two chess championships in a row... When the privilege of the champion is to defend his title without playing the preliminary tournaments, you are involved in all championship cycles & a few regular tournaments, do you plan to avoid that anyone can even reach the championship final in the future? :-)
Thanks! I must admit that this is really a magic moment for me in chess... if you consider that despite my recent ICCF Grand Master Title, probably I will also soon win my third italian Correspondence Champion Title out of three participations in the Italian Final Tournaments. And now also this huge satisfaction of being the FICGS Champion! I look forward to seeing a new challenger soon, I wonder who he will be, but let me enjoy the next few months for now ;-)
- What are your impressions on the games? Did you have any strategy from the beginning to the end? Finally did it work or was there another factor? (without revealing your secrets, of course :))
The games in the opening were as I expected, all Najdorf Sicilians except one game where I played 1.d4. My goal was to win at least one game, so I tried different aggressive variations as White (6.Bg5, 6.f3, 6.Be3 and 6.h3) with the hope of catching Edward unprepared on at least one of these, but uff, he was very well prepared on each one of them! A curious thing is that my biggest chance of winning happened in a game where I had the Black pieces! So Edward had to take some risks in one of his games where he had Black (the games where he had White were already finished or all very drawish) he was forced to avoid an easy draw he had (the 6.h3 game) and eventually he lost that game. Happy of having reached my goal of winning at least one game, I accepted his draw offer in that other game (6.f3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be3 Be7 9.Be2) where I had good winning chances.
- You probably noticed, like many correspondence chess players, that the hardware still fastly improves while chess engines are continuously getting stronger, particularly since that "supposed" clones of Rybka (some may be even stronger than Rybka herself) appeared in the race. Do you think that the rate of draws will be so high soon that it may definitely kill correspondence chess? Do you have any opinion on these new engines?
I think that despite the big improvement of Hardwares and engines, we are still very far (and we will still be in the next 5 years, hopefully) from a situation where all the games will most probably end in a draw. So I think we can enjoy correspondence chess for many more years in the future, even if of course the Draw percentage at the highest levels will be higher and higher.
- I remember that you were surprised to win your match against Alberto in the Candidates Final of the 5th cycle (the reason why you do not even have to defend your title this time), the WCH rules (particularly the co-existence of the round-robin tournament & knockout tournament) are obviously not well understood by all players, what do you think about this system and the tie in 8 games matches? Are there changes you'd like to see in the future?
Yes, I really was! We were both convinced that with all draws, the higher rated player would have won (Alberto was higher rated than me in that match). Anyway it was our fault, as we didn't read the rules carefully. I am not sure what changes could be done in the future... maybe this is anyway the best setup, no new ideas are coming to my mind right now.
- Do you have a few more words for Edward after these nice games? Maybe also for your future opponents? :)
It was a real pleasure for me to play him, not only for the interesting games we played, but also for the friendly chats we had during the exchanges of the moves. I hope to play him again in the future for a rematch.
- Thanks for your answers and congratulations again!
Welcome, and thanks ;-)
_________
It is very interesting to see that a even a player like Eros prefered to minimize the risks (avoiding mouse drops or whatever) as much as possible by accepting a draw in a game where he had winning chances. Correspondence chess is definitely not all about chess, that's probably the lesson.
Also it is reassuring to read that correspondence chess is NOT dead yet, nor soon :)
Paul Valle (2011-02-03 01:27:33)
Creating an Opening book
Hi guys,
a couple of chessbase/rybka questions that I hope you can help me with:
-how do you create a completely new opening book?
-How do you start en engine tournament from a set opening position?
Paul
Michael Aigner (2011-02-04 08:18:41)
Houdini 1.5 leads TCEC comp. chess tourn
It´s not over - it is a close match
1 Houdini 1.5a + 6 = 17 - 4
2 Rybka 4.0 + 4 = 17 - 6
and 13 games to go....
Jimmy Huggins (2011-02-12 04:18:32)
WBCCC Round 1 Update
This is the first update for the WBCCC, I guess some of you have been following some of the games there. There have been a lot of interesting games and some surprises a lot the way. As I'm reporting on the FICGS forum I will make most of this about the FICGS side. Here are some results so far and starting at the top boards.
B2 Uly(Vytron) vs Gino Figlio- Gino does a good job of defending a ..2.e6 line of the Sicilian. And both players agree to a draw after 34 moves.
B4 Daniel Parmet vs Sebastian Boehme- This was a Poison Pawn line of the Sicilian. The game ended before it even got out of book. A short draw, I think both people agreed that it was a good result for each player.
B6- Matt O'Brein vs Omprakash- A surprise if only for how short the game was. Matt shows his tactual muscles when his higher rated opponent much of had and oversight in this defense. As 23.g6! h6 24.Bxh6! and it looks like black has burned his bridges in this game.
B8-Stephanie vs Ruben Comes- This maybe the biggest surprise in round at least in terms of the bigger name on the FICGS side. Stephanie what looks to be a prefect opening all of the B90 lines and everyone agrees 32.Bc3! to be a new novelty and a very good one at that. Stephanie went on to grind Ruben down to a lost endgame. I very interesting game that has be to be seen to believe, I guess this going to show, that not all B90 lines lend to draws.
B13-Scott Nichols vs indrajit_sg- This was a long fought draw. When looking at the game early I thought white may have some chance to take advantage of his open g-file. But not a lot materialize later in the endgame(form the engines point of view).
B14-donkasand vs David Evans- David enter into dangerous territory with this B90 line. At move 19 he played ..Rb8 which looks to be a move to get out of book, because the other moves didn't look so good. Credit to David for finding a draw line in this game. Its another game with a look.
Kamesh Nookala vs Jimmy Huggins- What can I say I played an experimental opening and it backfired :) A well played game by Kamesh. Thanks for the chance to have a good fight with you.
Now on the 2nd set of games(Each player has 2 games in each round)
B3 Ramil Germanes vs Moz- Ramil here played a safe line in the B90 form the white side. So this looked like and easy draw.
B4 Sebastian Boehme vs Uly(Vytron)- Vytron plays and interesting side line of the Crao-Kann and play was very shape, but I got the feeling black played to ambitiously and had the worse of the position. He found a good defensive sacrifice and the good was hold to a draw. I think Sebi had winning chances, but I will have to look over the game to come up with an idea on that one. Anyway a great game to look over.
Ruben Comes vs Matthew O'Berin- Maybe the sharpest and most ambitious game in round 1. This goes in the the B97 lines, but Ruben goes for the Qf3 side line and produces a complex position after Rd3. I love this game so much I want to post the link again for everyone to please watch this game and post a comment about it.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=20213
B13 Fulcrum2000 vs Scott Nichols- Scott tries his luck to be ambitious and backfires with his Bh4 idea. Even when looking at the game. I was thinking it to be a good idea, but as it turns out. It goes as just losing a tempo. I thought this was one of the more instructive games of the round. I liked the way white played the endgame.
And the last result I have for the round for the FICGS players is
B17-indrajit_sg vs Kamesh Nookala- This was an interesting draw were white plays and early sideline in the Sicilian that tends to be drawish unless black forces the play. Another well played game by both sides.
I just want to say there are a lot of games one should look at. As more results come in on the FICGS side I will posted. In my opinion one should follow Wayne's games I have enjoyed his play so far. He had to comeback some in his wild game with black vs deka, but I get the feeling this game will ended in a draw. I would also follow the underrated Matt O'Berin in games to come. He has proven to be a great player so far.
Kamesh Nookala (2011-02-17 19:13:14)
Friends, let's revolutionaize FICGS!!!!
Hi Guys,
FICGS is a great place. Atleast for me. I am very much attracted to the style of play. For more competitive play and attracting more correspondence chess players, while maintaining the purpose of correspondence chess, I think we all can help contribute in making FICGS the greatest server of all times to come.
I know what matters is real stuff, like the ICCF, but why not strengthen the identity of FICGS itself. We can have some games with various other servers (for e.g. the Rybkaforum match we had)
This way, in a calendar year we can have our tours fixed with each server, be it German or anything else.
As far as Thib is concerned, he is too much preoccupied maintaining the server. So, I request each and every member of this Server to throw some of their valuable inputs.
Warm Regards,
Kam
Jimmy Huggins (2011-03-05 06:14:08)
Poll for best game of round 1
If you have been following some of the games I would like for you to cast a vote for the best game of Round 1. Look here for the poll and read the directions because I was unable to put up all the games for vote.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21096
Jimmy Huggins (2011-03-10 11:02:48)
Notes for WBCCC Round 2
With the last game about to come to a close. I wanted to remember everyone that the next round is going to be starting sometime next week. At some point today Garvin will talk about the next pairings. When they are official released. I will start making the next game links available. Directly for what games you want to see.
Players please give some input about the starting time for Round 2 if you have an opinion :)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21156
Jimmy Huggins (2011-03-12 06:13:27)
WBCCC Round 2 Pairings
Oh ok here are the links to the games threads for Round 2!
B1-Loboestepario (Gino Figilo) vs CumnorChessClub (Kevin E.Plant)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21163
B2-Moz vs Sekos
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21164
B3-Mark Eldridge vs David Evans
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21165
B4-Stephanie vs Fulcrum2000
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21166
B5-NATIONAL12 vs Kamesh
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21167
B6-ppipper vs jitan
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21168
B7-Wayne Lowrance vs tomski1981
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21169
B8-Uly vs indrajit_sg
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21170
B9-Balabachi vs Sebastian Boehme
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21171
B10-Schachmatt (Matt O'Brein) vs Weirwindle
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21172
B11-donkasand vs Ruben Comes
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21173
B12-natmaku vs ralunger (Ramil Germanes)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21174
B13-Scott Nichols vs Omprakash
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21175
B14-Keoki010 (George Clement) vs deka
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21176
B15-parmetd (Daniel Parmet)vs SpiderG (Peter Marriott)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21177
B16-Banned for Life vs TheHug(Jimmy Huggins)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21178
2nd set of Games
B1-CumnorChessClub (Kevin E.Plant) vs Moz
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21180
B2-jitan vs Loboestepario (Gino Figilo)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21181
B3-Fulcrum2000 vs Mark Eldridge
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21182
B4-Kamesh vs Stephanie
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21183
B5-David Evans vs National12
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21184
B6-Sekos vs ppipper
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21185
B7-indrajit_sg vs Wayne Lowrance
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21186
B8-tomski1981 vs Uly
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21187
B9-Sebastian Boehme vs Schachmatt (Matt O'Brein)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21188
B10-Weirwindle vs donkasand
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21189
B11-Ruben Comes vs Balabachi
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21190
B12-ralunger (Ramil Germanes) vs keoki010 (George Clement)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21191
B13-Omparakash vs natmaku
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21193
B14-deka vs Scott Nichols
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21194
B15-TheHug (Jimmy Huggins) vs parmentd
(Daniel Parmet)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21195
B16-SpiderG (Peter Marriott) vs Banned for Life
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21196
Jimmy Huggins (2011-03-14 17:39:50)
WBCCC Round 2 to be a short delay
I'm sorry about this, but the tournament will be delayed by a day or 2, because of a withdrawal at the top of the pairings. If it was a lower point group, we could have probably winged it. For more details players please read this.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21227
Me and Garvin will work hard to get this fixed as soon as possible, follow this thread or here and I will get it corrected. When we have things fixed pairings wise I will post ASAP.
Jimmy Huggins (2011-04-29 11:23:50)
WBCCC-New stuff and Round 2 Update
Hello everyone! Its been a while since the last time I have updated. I would like to talk about recent happening. Then I will give an update on the games for this round.
I have had some talks with a few players. And I would like to announce that starting next year there will be more prizes. Besides the money prize next year. I haven't decide yet how many of these I will have yet. And its possible there could be more ideas to come by. Please also know that there will be money prizes still this is just something on also to add to the interests.
1.Subscriptions to annotated games. For example Chess Today, Chessvibes, chesspublishing.com and Opening Master. There can be others, these are just examples. If you have other good ideas here please post. Most likely this will be a combined prize here.
2.Rental time on the new Rybka Cluster- Not sure how exactly this one would work. It could be a lot different in a years time for the Rybka Cluster. But I think this would have some interests.
3.Hardware- Again not sure how I would do this. But I would probably have it as a middle to high end setup for a prize. Hardware is always a every changing process its hard to know what is good at that time.
Any other suggests are welcome. Probably the best realistic prize is the first one. If I have multiple prizes like this. The way it would probably play out is like a lottery system. Start with the winner and work your way down. On what they want and go 2nd, 3rd etc...
The last prize to talk about.(And maybe the best) I have had talks with the people of chesspublishing.com and next year. Whatever game is voted for "best game of the round". Will have there game analyzed, by one of the titled players on that site and have the game published. I will try and have it open to everyone that follows the games for the WBCCC.
The next thing of interest for next year. Is that we will have a conditional move system in place. It was thought in a blitz setting to be a great asset to have. For example if your opponent is in a different time zone than you and the next move to you would be a force move. It would be nice to have this option to make the forced play. Without having to say up late at night to make this obvious move. This is all the new stuff. Round 2 Update to come.
Jimmy Huggins (2011-04-29 14:45:26)
WBCCC-New stuff and Round 2 Update
The last round was very exciting! And this round has had some great games as well. To speak of there is just 4 games left. Here is the report of the most important games this round.
Starting at the top boards. We have have...
B1-Loboestepario (Gino Figilo) vs CumnorChessClub (Kevin E.Plant)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21163-
This game followed a Catalan. Gino makes ambitious choice to go with 5.Nbd2! I gave this move a ! Not because of its theoretical standing. But because it will lead to a position were white will give up a whole pawn for rapid development. Never the less, black is equal to the task and managers to hold on to the pawn for most of the game and keep the game balanced. With my human eyes, I thought for sure white had an advantage! After move 20.Be4, It looks like white has 2 racking bishops. While black has one black locked in! But in depth analysis shows, that black can hold on. And shows great defensive technique. Down the stretch. Well played by Gino and Kevin. On of my favorite games to follow.
B3-Mark Eldridge vs David Evans
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21165-
David has gotten tested in both his black games in this tournament. And this game was no different. We had another B90 line in this game. And ...8.h5 was used. This is becoming a common line in this tournament. Mark's treatment on the white side was great! I think his future opponents will think twice before trying this line again. At move 22, the game reaches the sharpest point. After move 22.fxe5! I thought that Mark had a chance vs David. But David founds some good moves to exchanges pieces and hold for a draw. The best of which was the combo of ...33.Rf3 and ...36.Rxg3! This was a nice find by him. Great job to David and Mark! I look forward to seeing both these players again.
B4-Stephanie vs Fulcrum2000
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21166-
I would normally just post FICGS member games here. But this maybe one of the top 2 or 3 most important games of this round. In what turns out to be the most exciting game of the round IMO. White has shown that they are quite good in the opening phase. At move 18 they choose 18.b3 which was suggested as being the novelty move. White gets a very strong game and after a king tour to capture the pawn. It looked like a win for sure!, but it seems a mistake was made at move 38. Instead of 38.Qc1!? the move 38.Qe8! seems to be a near winner. I thoughts on why this move was missed is because, White was in time trouble in both games. I have to believe this was a favor. As we speak Stephanie is close to defeat in the other game that I will talk about shortly. I would watch her for the reminded of the tournament. I think they will learn form this experience and be even stronger going future. Well done by both players.
B5-NATIONAL12 vs Kamesh
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21167
Two of my good friends battling here. This was a B90 battle. The novelty move was the straight forward looking 27.h4, but after some exchanges. White has to settled for equality. A good match to follow, the one other note made was this was a line pioneered by Eros Riccio.
B7-Wayne Lowrance vs tomski1981
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21169-
Wayne plays a good line vs the french vs tomski. In fact by the database expert, it was in a 100% win line!! But after the queens come off the board. It burns out to a quiet draw. Wayne has had good opening results, but has yet to get in the winners column. I have faith that Wayne will win a game very soon. Good game to both in this one.
B8-Uly vs indrajit_sg
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21170-
This was a nice game to follow. A french defense was chosen. The point in which it gets interest is the choice to play 19.bxc3!? Which leads to 21.Nh6+!? I loves this sires of moves! 27.Rh3! was also a good move here. But its seems black has just enough resources to hold the balance. ..54.Bxg6! was a good finally touch. Well played by both players.
B9-Balabachi(William Fuller) vs Sebastian Boehme
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21171
What was talked about as a drawish Ruy position. I found to be quite a game with all the early fireworks. I also liked the material imbalance in this game. Sebi has a rep of being very difficult to beat with the black pieces. This helps when you have the Ruy and the Posion pawn line of the Sicilian. As two of your best weapons. ;)
B10-Schachmatt (Matt O'Brein) vs Weirwindle
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21172-
This was an interesting Richter-Rauzer game. 15.Qf4 was the novelty move, Form there it got crazy. 21.Nb3 seems to invite a pawn race. Which in the end white loses. This was a tough game for white. I think he should have been able to hold it. But it was still a good game to follow.
B11-donkasand vs Ruben Comes
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21173
This was a nice positional game by Mike (Donkasand), This was a 6.h3 Sicilian. And we get the usually good defense here. ..7.h5 White gets great positional pressure for the whole game and even gets a pawn, but Ruben wholes for a draw.
B12-natmaku vs ralunger (Ramil Germanes)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21174
This game was a Petroff with 5.Nc3. This kind of move gives white rapid development. Its seems black equalize pretty quickly. And on move 21 a draw was agreed on.
B13-Scott Nichols vs Omprakash
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21175
This was an interesting King's Gambit game. I think Scott didn't study his opponents rep. :) The King's Gambit is Om's specialty. So this was an easy draw for black.
B14-Keoki010 (George Clement) vs deka
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21176-
In this game black returns to his pet line of the Sicilian with 2.a6(Which he played in the last round) I believe this is called the O'Kelly variation. This time around he goes for ..7.Qb6 which looks a little better than ..7.Bb5!? A draw probably should have been possible, but George was able to grid out a win. Well played by both players.
B15-parmetd (Daniel Parmet)vs SpiderG (Peter Marriott)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21177
This was a King Indian by black. And white does a good job of out playing his opponent in this game. Unfortunately it seems Peter has gotten busy in his life. This game was decide by time.
B16-Banned for Life vs TheHug(Jimmy Huggins)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21178
I face off against Alan who has the white pieces. And is consider to be one of the best players when playing 1.b3. It was a difficult game for me as I decide before hand to play a dangerous line. Needless to say I lose this game after a few small mistakes on my part. I am founding that all the players in the WBCCC are good, I maybe better off being a commentator lol, but no one would have that.
This was the first set of games.
Here is the 2nd game of the 2nd round in the next post.
Jimmy Huggins (2011-04-29 18:36:20)
WBCCC-New stuff and Round 2 Update
B1-CumnorChessClub (Kevin E.Plant) vs Moz
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21180
Kevin makes an interesting choice here with 2.a4!? vs the Silicon Defense. Not exactly sure what he wanted out of the opening. I can only guess he wanted to mix it up here. Anyway, black equalizes fairly quickly and is better. But after 18.a5! He finds the best way to equalize and both agree to a draw.
B2-jitan vs Loboestepario (Gino Figilo)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21181-
The somewhat unknown Jitan has had a good tournament. And is given his ICCF SM opponent all he can handle. In a game that is still going. Gino is down a pawn, but it appears to be a draw and I would guess the game is about to finish. This was an interesting approach by Gino who gets in b5 and h5 very early in this game. And Jitan plays the most naturally looking sac. 13.Nbxd5! it looked like for a long time Gino was in trouble, but he has found enough resources IMO. A well played game by both players.
B3-Fulcrum2000 vs Mark Eldridge
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21182
This was a nice French game to watch. The novelty move was ..11.Na5, OTB I would like white in this game and I had a feeling that white possibly could have risked an attack, but this game came down to endgame play and White was able to outplay black in the end.
B4-Kamesh vs Stephanie
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21183-
In my opinion this is the most important game the round and it is reaching its fianlly stages. I believe Stephanie to be one of the top players in this event. She has been doing well, but Kam has played the near perfect opening and got her in trouble. If you remember my previous post you remember I talk about Stephanie was in time trouble. Which has not help the cause. The one move I enjoyed the most so far in this game was 36.Ra5!, this was a nice exchange sac. And its given Kam nice pass pawns on the Queen-side. I would guess this game will be over soon. It has been a nice game to watch.
B5-David Evans vs National12
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21184
A battle of the English Countryman here. :) This was the Open Defense of the Ruy. Form the comments I got, it seems that the opening was played about as perfectly as you can get. David posed some problems to Paul(National12), but it ends in a fairly easy draw. One finally note ..10.d4 IMO is a very difficult move to beat.
B6-ppipper vs jitan
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21168-
This is one of the finally 4 games still playing. What looks like to be a draw here. The white black has been dancing for a few moves now, but blacks back rank is weak. That equals a drawish game. :)
This game started out form B90 and so has a ton of theory.
B7-indrajit_sg vs Wayne Lowrance
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21186
I fairly quiet B90 game. I don't think white got much out of the opening. Well played by Wayne here.
B8-tomski1981 vs Uly
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21187
A battle of good friends here. IMO I thought white played the this Queens pawn opening passively. And so we had an early draw at move 26.
B9-Sebastian Boehme vs Schachmatt (Matt O'Brein)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21188-
This is one of the 4 last games. And I have to say its been a good game. We had an interesting Sicilian position. I had thought black was in trouble. But after he tripled up on the d-file. Then got massive exchanges. He looks like its headed toward a draw.
B10-Weirwindle vs donkasand
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21189-
This was a nice positional Sicilian game. Although it ends in a draw. Its a must see game! Watching the drawing combo at the end is very beautiful. It starts with ..27.e4! and you can watch it form there.
B11-Ruben Comes vs Balabachi(William Fuller)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21190
Ruben opened up this rep with 3.h3!? and we ended up with a closed type of Sicilian. But his opponent stayed strong. Though out the game. Even if it looked like Ruben had some pressure. In the finally position.
B12-ralunger (Ramil Germanes) vs keoki010 (George Clement)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21191-
This game saw the Exchange variation in the Queen's gambit. It has a high rate rate. But to Ramil credit he manage to give George a couple of weak pawns in the endgame, but not enough for any real advantage.
B13-Omparakash vs natmaku
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21193-
I would have hoped for more in this game. As I'm a lover of the 6.Bc4 (Sozin) Sicilian. After 14.e5!? this forces unneeded exchanges. After which, the game looked like a draw. And that is how it ended.
B14-deka vs Scott Nichols
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21194
Usually the Exchange Slav is pretty drawish. And this game was no different. But both players did try to mount some kind of advance. Both had good posts on each others side of the board. But a drawish opening is a drawish opening.
B15-TheHug (Jimmy Huggins) vs parmentd
(Daniel Parmet)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21195
I tried my luck in an opening that was not something with e4. And it didn't go as well I had hoped, Daniel was able to get a equal position fairly quickly. In my try at making new theory in a very uncommon line vs the King's Indian Defense.
And finally we have this last game.
B16-SpiderG (Peter Marriott) vs Banned for Life
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21196
This would have promised to be a nice Larson Attack game. By alas Peter timed out in this game as well. I would have loved to seen this attacking game with both sides castled on opposite sides.
Well that would do it for my reports for this round. This was a great round, and the next promises to be great as well. I will post info for the next round after the last game is over with.
Any feedback is welcome!
Thibault de Vassal (2011-04-30 01:28:03)
Amateur player beats Rybka 4 !?
What do you think??
http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2011/04/amateur-player-defeats-rybka-in-match.html
Last but not least: "He knows by heart 20,000 books and 30 million digits of the pi number."
April 28, is this april fool joke in another country?
Philip Roe (2011-04-30 01:34:38)
Amateur player beats Rybka 4 !?
The description of the play is not precise, but for sure what this guy did was to pull some version of the old trick of pitting Rybka White versus Rybka Black (Oh look, I can beat TWO computers!)
Paul Valle (2011-05-04 00:00:05)
Amateur player beats Rybka 4 !?
The guy seems to be a complete charlatan:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7183
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7190
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7194
http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/ukrainian-beats-rybka-4-blindfolded/
reg, Paul
Jimmy Huggins (2011-05-15 13:08:49)
WBCCC Round 3 links and more
Here are the links for Round 3. Plus I have a quick announcement. I have talked to Garvin and I'm in the running to consider adding a 2nd tournament to the WBCCC. Probably called the WBCCC Inv. -> Invitational. This will be more of the standard style of blitz tournament. Something like 14d+1d per move, I don't want to set exact time control yet, I will probably open this discussion up after WBCCC 1 is over. What details I will give is this. What over the prize is next year will split with the other tournament plus a plaque to the winner. My hope is to have another drawing card for the WBCCC and I know this will probably bring more top players in.
Anyway here are the links for you to follow the games you wish to watch this round.
As always we will start at the top boards and work are way down. This time I will just do both of each board at the same time.
B=Board
B1- CumnorChessClub (Kevin D. Plant) vs Fulcrum2000- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21828
B1- ppipper vs CumnorChessClub (Kevin D. Plant)- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21814
B2- Kamesh vs ppipper- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21829
B2- Fulcrum2000 vs Kamesh- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21815
B3- jitan vs Sebastian Boehme- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21830
B3- National12 vs jitan- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21816
B4- Loboestepario (Gino Figilo) vs WeirwindleX- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21817
B4- David Evans vs Loboestepario (Gino Figilo)- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21831
B5- Sebastian Boehme vs David Evans- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21818
B5- Weirwindle vs Banned for Life- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21832
B6- ralunger (Ramil Germanes) vs National12- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21833
B6- donkasand vs ralunger (Ramil Germanes)- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21819
B7- tomski1981 vs donkasand- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21834
B7- parmetd (Daniel Parmet) vs tomski1981- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21820
B8- Banned for Life vs Ruben Comes- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21821
B8- indrajit_sg vs parmetd (Daniel Parmet)- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21835
B9- Keoki010 (George Clement) vs Indrajit- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21822
B9- Mark Eldridge vs Balabachi- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21837
B10- Wayne Lowrance vs Stephanie- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21838
B10- Balabachi vs Wayne Lowrance- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21823
B11- StephanieX vs Mark_Eldridge- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21824
B11- Omprakash vs Keoki010 (George Clement)- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21839
B12- natmaku vs Scott Nichols- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21825
B12- Ruben Comes vs deka- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21840
B13- deka vs Omprakash- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21826
B13- Scott Nichols vs Schachmatt (Matt O'Brien)- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21841
B14- Schachmatt (Matt O'Brien) vs TheHug (Jimmy Huggins)- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21827
B14- TheHug (Jimmy Huggins) vs natmaku http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=21842
Before I get off, I would like to thank Thib for letting me ask his great players to play in my tournament. Best wishes to all and enjoy this next year!
Jimmy
Jimmy Huggins (2011-05-15 13:34:12)
WBCCC Round 3 links and more
After 2 rounds FICGS has 5 of the top 10 places in the standings in the WBCCC 1. With Kevin #1 and Kamesh #4 at the top with 3 points and Gino #6, David #7, and Sebi #10. Well Rybka Forum has 4 of the top 10. Fulcrum2000 #2, ppipper #3, WeirwindleX #8, National12 #9.
Many of these players are facing off against each other. Here are just a few games you that are must watch for this round.
Banned for Life vs Ruben Comes- Banned for Life (Alan) is one of the best with 1.b3. It should be interesting to see how Ruben combats this expert with the Larson System.
Sebastian Boehme vs David Evans- These two have crossed paths before on the freestyle field before. I took great interest in this match because Sebi has 1 on the highest winning % with the white pieces in the field and hasn't last a white game on FICGS. That I have seen. I can bet on some fireworks in this game.
Kamesh vs ppipper- Kam put on a good show with the white pieces vs one of the toughest opponents in the field (with my human eyes) and ppipper has done great with the black pieces. With both of his wins coming with the black pieces! O_o Should be fun :)
jitan vs Sebastian Boehme- Jitan is showing to be one of the top tier players in this event. I truly enjoy the tactical opening he played in his only win in the tournament so far in round 1 vs George. And gave Gino all he could handle in Round 2 (With my human eyes again) :)
A lot of the other games speak for themselves. Also keep on eye on Board 1 with Kevin. :)
Jimmy Huggins (2011-06-22 06:54:36)
The rise of freestyle chess again.
Hello to all my FICGS friends! I was wanting to post here to let people know about a live broadcast later today. Me and ICCF GM Arno Nickel will be having a match later to help promote freestyle chess. In truth this is another practice match to try and test a server for freestyle chess. He had own 1st match yesterday. And it was nice to see it being followed. I hope some of you come watch the event. Comments are welcome! :) The match will be at 6:30am Central Standard Time/7:30am Eastern Standard Time/12:30 GMT/ 11:30 Rybka Forum time. Look for a thread in the Rybka Forum/ Computer Chess subforum. The thread will be up several minutes before the match. The time control will be 60min+15sec, which is a common time control for freestyle chess.
For those of you who don't know ICCF GM Arno Nickel. He is in the top 10 in the ICCF and is one of the leading people to promote and bring freestyle chess to the fore front.
I hope to see you today and I'm sure there will be other matches to follow in the future. This will all lead up to a great tournament later on this year. :)
Thibault de Vassal (2011-06-23 04:21:19)
The rise of freestyle chess again.
Nice demonstration...
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=22155
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=22168
Thibault de Vassal (2011-07-13 22:03:40)
Interviews with Vasik Rajlich
Just copying the link posted by Paul in the chat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQshTNJ4pSM
I couldn't summarize it, but if someone is able to do it, he's welcome :)
I guess it is also about the supposed Rybka clones (Ippolit, Robbolito, Ivanhoe, Firebird, Houdini...)
Thibault de Vassal (2011-08-19 11:43:45)
Rybka banned from ICGA
Clone or not clone, I'm not sure if this question is worth something in computer chess but ICGA did it: Rybka was banned and stripped of titles...
I just partly read RybkaInvestigation document, a few points are particularly ridiculous (like 2.2 "Sudden Strength Increase"), I have no idea on the other ones and I'm not sure if this is really important in the real world.
Finally, the punishment:
- to strip Rajlich of all ICGA Tournament Titles and,
- force the return of trophies and prize funds to the ICGA and,
- ban his programs from future competitions until he can satisfy the ICGA that they are no longer derivatives and that he has satisfied the conditions of any other penalties the ICGA imposes.
- encourage other tournaments (Leiden, Paderborn, CCT, TACCL, etc.) to disallow the entry of Rybka until it is proven “clean”.
ICGA Panel Members
The Secretariat members:
Robert Hyatt - (Crafty, Cray Blitz, World Computer Chess Champion in 1983 and 1986)
Mark Lefler (author of Now)
Harvey Williamson (part of Hiarcs Team)
Panel members:
Albert Silver (software designer for Chess Assistant (1999-2002); currently editor of
Chessbase News (2010-present))
Amir Ban (author of Junior: World Champion 2002, 2004, 2006, World microcomputer
Champion 1997, 2001)
Charles Roberson (author of NoonianChess)
Christophe Theron (author of Chess Tiger)
Dariusz Czechowski (author of Darmenios)
Don Dailey (author of Cilkchess, Star Socrates, Rex, Komodo)
Eric Hallsworth (part of Hiarcs Team, Publisher of Selective Search magazine)
Fabien Letousky (author of Fruit)
Frederic Friedel (Chessbase.com)
Gerd Isenberg (author of IsiChess)
Gyula Horvath (author of Pandix, Brainstorm)
Ingo Bauer (Shredder team)
Jan Krabbenbos (Tournament Director of Leiden tournaments)
Kai Himstedt (author of Gridchess and Cluster Toga)
Ken Thompson (creator of Belle Chess Machine, World Computer Chess Champion
1980, Turing Award winner 1983, creator of B and C programming languages,
Unix and Plan 9 developer).
Marcel van Kervinck (author of Rookie)
Maciej Szmit (assistant professor at Technical University of Lodz)
Mark Watkins (MAGMA Computer Algebra Group, School of Mathematics and
Statistics, University of Sydney)
Mark Uniacke (Hiarcs, World Microcomputer Champion 1993)
Mincho Georgiev (Pawny)
Olivier Deville (Tournament Director of ChessWars)
Omid David (author of Falcon)
Peter Skinner (Tournament Director of CCT--the major annual online computer chess
tournament)
Ralf Schäfer (author of Spike)
Richard Vida (author of Critter)
Richard Pijl (author of The Baron)
Stefan Meyer-Kahlen (author of Shredder, multiple world champions from 1996-2007)
Thomas Mayer (author of Quark)
Tord Romstad (author of Stockfish, Glaurung)
Tom Pronk (ProChess, Much)
Vladan Vuckovic (Axon, Achilles)
Wylie Garvin (game Programmer at Ubisoft Montreal)
Yngvi Björnsson (The Turk)
Zach Wegner (author of ZCT and Rondo, an upgraded version of Anthony Cozzie’s
Zappa program, which was world champion in 2005)
ICGA Board
President - David N.L. Levy
Vice-President: Yngvi Björnsson
Secretary-Treasurer: Hiroyuki Iida
Programmers Representative: Rémi Coulom
WCCC Tournament Director
Jaap van den Herik
http://www.chessvibes.com/plaatjes/rybkaevidence/RybkaInvestigation.pdf
http://www.chess.com/news/rybka-banned-and-stripped-of-titles-3798
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQshTNJ4pSM
Jimmy Huggins (2011-09-07 00:44:59)
Freestyle Cup 1 update
Here is a couple of threads over at the Rybka forum one is about time control, one is an overall thread and the last is the start time.
Time Control- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=22927
Start Time- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=22926
Overall- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=22925
Please give input and vote. Please and thank you.
Jimmy Huggins (2011-11-28 10:38:22)
WBCCC 2 sign up and WBCCC 1 review
After an exciting WBCCC 1, Own Champion ppipper (José Sanz) wins with a finally score of 7.5 out 10. FICGS top players were in a tied for 2nd with Timothy Cookson, Sebastian Boehme, and Ruben Comes. Credit also has to go to David Evans who had ppipper as White in the last game. And went all out to beat him. In the end Jose pulled out the win with black. For those interested I highly recommend you read this article. About the champion talked about his tournament games.
http://www.chesscafe.com/chessok/chessok.htm
Now I wanted to go a head and open up the sign up for the 2nd edition of WBCCC and tell everyone about the improvements and add ons.
The first major improvement on WBCCC is that it will have a simple to use conditional move system. With our easy downloadable client we use. There is also going to be a 2nd tournament for those who prefer a little more time than own standard tournament of 30days per side. In the 2nd tournament that is going to be called Rybka Forum Grand Prix. Is going to be 30day for the first 40 moves and 30 days Sudden Death after that. So basically you get 30 more days for 40 moves on your clock. Now here is a few more things to know about the tournament. After each move, if you request it. You can have your move noticed to you by email. This is good for the busy person who doesn't check the game forums all the time. The other thing added to the tournament is that there will be a file on hand for everyone to check to see what sites everyone plays on it a head of time. This is good for guys who like to prepare for there opponent. As for other fun things offered. I finalize with chesspublishing.com that they will help for own best game per round and the winners will get there games analyzed by the top players there and will publish them on the forum. Which I can expand to here and the other forums I promote at. For some were scared of the time control, but in truth we only had 2 games time out, but this was because they left there games. Which was a disappointment, but 2 games over a whole tournament was very good! If you maybe interested, but are unsure about the time. I recommend talking to me and when can have a test game to see if you can handle it. Most know with in a week or 2 if they can do it or not. Thanks for the support of Thib and everyone that played this year and anyone that will try this next year!
Jimmy
Jimmy Huggins (2011-11-28 10:57:39)
WBCCC 2 sign up and WBCCC 1 review
Another great piece in the article is that of Nelson Hernandez. Who probably not many of you know of. He has been part of a 2 man team that has been very success in freestyle chess. He won one of the major championships know as the PAL/CSS which was sponsored by playchess (chessbase). Anyway to those who know him. He has a vast book that he has been working on for years and is a very respectable member of the Rybka Forum.
The game insight he gave in the article. That of 2 long time members of FICGS Kevin Planet and Sebi Boehme was very well done to say the least.
Garvin Gray (2011-12-29 10:30:09)
WBCCC 2012 Binding Poll:
Over at www.rybkaforum.net, World Blitz Correspondence Chess Championship begins in a couple of weeks.
There is now a poll out at http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=23854 which is to decide how many rounds will be played (10 or 12) and also when round times will be announced (start of tournament or near end of a round).
For those players who are thinking of entering, played last year or are interested and knowledgeable spectators, you can vote as per the instructions below.
The four options are:
1) 10 games, 30 days initial time plus 1 hr increment AND all scheduled round times are confirmed before the start of the tournament
2) 10 games, 30 days initial time plus 1 hr increment AND all scheduled round times are confirmed a few days before the end of a round
3) 12 games, 30 days initial time plus 1 hr increment AND all scheduled round times are confirmed before the start of the tournament
4) 12 games, 30 days initial time plus 1 hr increment AND all scheduled round times are confirmed a few days before the end of a round
As this preferential poll covers both options and will be binding, as in the final vote will be what format we will be using for WBCCC 2012, I am going to ask all voters to write in their votes.
As a write in system is be used, everyone has the option of choosing only one option if they want, or can allocate as many preferences as they want, up to 4 numbers in total.
So if a person only wants to vote for one number and does not want to allocate a preference, that is acceptable.
The reason for using write-in votes is three-fold:
1) All twenty four different options are evenly allocated
2) A voter can choose to allocate only one preference
3) It gives me the opportunity to see if all votes are genuine, rather than possibly the results being skewed by people who have no interest in playing in the tournament.
If a person does not feel comfortable posting their vote in public, but does want to record a vote, they can send me a private message, which will be counted in the total votes.
Voting will close Thursday January 5.
Thibault de Vassal (2012-01-03 13:57:46)
Houdini and draw rate evolution at ICCF
No, chess engines are not to solve chess yet :) But this blog (link posted by Wolff Morrow in the chat) is quite interesting anyway!
http://blog.chess.com/FirebrandX/are-computers-closing-in-on-solving-chess
There you'll find the draw rate evolution at ICCF these last years, a clear influence of the strongest chess engines (Rybka, Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, Stockfish & so on...)
Garvin Gray (2012-04-21 16:44:52)
XFCC Play
Surely using xfcc play here would cause a few issues:
1) It is part of aquarium and so would be proprietary software from Rybka
2) As it is Rybka owned software, it would need them to set up passwords and the like for those not using aquarium.
3) Using xfcc play for wbccc has caused enough headaches for the xfcc play programmers. Not sure how keen they would be on xfcc play being used here.
That all being said, it would allow conditionals to be used here.
Garvin Gray (2012-05-19 15:24:06)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Hello all,
I have been thinking about this for a while, but I was wondering how many ficgs players would be interested in participating in a match vs Rybka Forum.
We tried this concept once before with limited success from an organisational point of view. From a playing pov, ficgs had little success :o
I am thinking something like this for a format:
1) Time control 30 moves initial plus 1 day increment
2) All individual matches are two games
3) Players are to play in rating order. - RF now does have some kind of rating system, at least for WBCCC participants. I think more of their players have also come over to here, so have ratings here.
4) We possibly could use xfcc play, which would allow conditionals to be used, but might mean all the games are played and shown at RF. - Might be possible to have them shown here somehow 'live'.
So, time to get some interest. Who would be willing to participate?
I am going to post this over at RF as well.
Michael Rogers (2012-05-20 22:16:17)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Garvin,
Would we be using the FICGS interface?
Neel Basant (2012-05-21 15:38:16)
Second match v Rybka Forum
sir
I am very interested in the team match.
Pls give me chance.
Neel Basant
Garvin Gray (2012-05-21 15:45:11)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Neel, Planning is only in its infancy and there are many hurdles to overcome.
So stay tuned.
Some of these hurdles include:
Interest from both sites?
Whether we use Rybka Forum's playing client?
If that will be available to all or just RF members?
What the time control will be?
Will players have to play their games on here as well as RF?
Whether conditional moves will be used?
How many players per team?
Is it possible to use the RF playing client, but have games transmitted live on both sites, so all members of both sites can follow the action as it happens?
Will chat be allowed in the games? This could be a sticking point as the two forums run very differently on this issue.
Who plays for which team?
And the list goes on.
Scott Nichols (2012-05-21 19:06:41)
Second match v Rybka Forum
MY list is short, it would have to be played on here under strict time limit of 30 days + 1 day increment. And I would play for the home team. I think the RF players need to give this server a chance.
Thibault de Vassal (2012-05-22 19:07:40)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Hi guys, sorry for the delay... I should be able to discuss all recent forum topics within days!
Garvin Gray (2012-05-27 08:36:57)
Second match v Rybka Forum
It has been confirmed that we can use xfccplay for all the games, if we wish.
Xfccplay is a playing client where players can make their moves and they are transmitted live to the Rybka Forum sub forum where these games will be shown live. Hopefully it will be possible to also show them here live.
To pursue using xfccplay further, I need to know if anyone who is considering playing would be not willing to play if the whole match is held using xfccplay, rather than making moves on here.
I certainly do want the second match to be very different to the first. To start with, that no games end with time outs.
Likely format:
Time control: 30 days initial plus 1 day increment.
Format: Each player plays two games against a single opponent
Number of players for each team: As many players as we can get for both teams
Board Order: By rating for those who have ratings on the site they are playing for. Others can be placed at captain’s discretion.
Sebastian Boehme (2012-05-27 20:53:48)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Basically interested. Get the stuff rolling guys. ;-)
Cheers,
Sebi
Thibault de Vassal (2012-05-28 16:32:40)
Second match v Rybka Forum
How do we avoid time outs? :/
Well, games may be played on RF (using Xfcc or not) or here, or on both sites (players choice).
Garvin, I'm afraid that games played through Xfcc cannot be shown here but that's not so important if it is viewable at RybkaForum.
Garvin Gray (2012-05-30 09:36:40)
No access for me to Rybka Forum
Can you please contact Dadi Jonsson immediately at Rybka Forum?
I can not access the forum, nor see any of the posts and due to the server upgrade, a lot of the back ground links are broken.
I can not send him a private message, nor reset my password as those options are also link broken.
Unless Dadi, or someone from Rybka Forum can sort out this issue, I have no access to RF at all.
Garvin Gray (2012-05-30 11:05:01)
No access for me to Rybka Forum
Looks like I am able to access the site now. Did anyone else have a period of time of no access at all?
George Clement (2012-05-30 18:05:24)
No access for me to Rybka Forum
Garvin I think the 'cloud server' was having another lightning storm. A few others were complaining also.
Garvin Gray (2012-06-01 20:20:07)
Second match v Rybka Forum
I have been informed that the conditional move system of xfccplay can not be removed just for one tournament, so if we use xfccplay for at least half the games, conditionals will be in operation.
I still think we can go ahead with using xfccplay, just that the half of the games that are played using xfccplay will have conditionals, and the ones played here will not.
While it is an issue, it is not a big issue, or a showstopper.
Everyone will still be playing two games against the same opponent. One here and one with xfccplay at RF.
I will give a couple of days for feedback. If there is no discussion, I will formalise details and then we will move on to official collection of entries, getting players familiar with xfccplay and then on to the games proper.
Garvin Gray (2012-06-06 13:53:31)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Hello all,
Current discussion here: http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=24942
Following discussions on RF and now what looks like a completely different format to what I was proposing and ideas I had in mind and seeing what looks like a no compromise situation from the RF side, it looks almost certain that I will not be having anything to do with organising this event, or participating for either side.
When I first came up with this idea of trying to get a second match going, one of the main ideas was to help promote both forums and playing clients to a wider audience, and especially to the better players for both sites.
Now that I see what RF seems to have in mind, or at least what they are willing to accept for playing conditions, I find them wholly unacceptable and contrary to the ideas and purposes originally intended.
The current proposed design really does have a pro RF feel about it, in that FICGS players will have to learn how to use xfccplay to play on here, plus possibly sign up an account, but RF players will not have to do the same at FICGS. I am also wondering, what happens if the high majority of players from both sites say they only want to play on their own forum. This whole competition falls over.
RF 'bosses' have been kind enough to allow xfccplay to be used for these games to make them a better product. I do not think it is unreasonable for RF players to play some of their games on FICGS.
Secondly, the current proposed design also goes competely against another original idea, which was to have the top player from RF competing against the top player from FICGS. And so on down the boards. This current design will most likely result in random board pairings and henceforth likely mis-matches, rather than having showpiece games and at the same time having the bottom players from both sides games counting as much as the top board. Potentially it could now be the top player from FICGS against the two bottom players from RF and vice versa. That is ridiculous.
So all in all, I have proposed a format originally on both sites. I do not see the current proposed format as achieving anything substantial and certainly not in the vein of the original ideas. Had I known the current structure was going to be proposed, I never would have bothered proposing this in the first place.
Unless the current structure changes, I hereby resign as overall organiser and go between for both forums and also as a participant in the second match.
Kind regards,
Garvin Gray
Nick Burrows (2012-06-07 15:30:53)
Second match v Rybka Forum
How about a match vs LSS?
Garvin Gray (2012-06-08 11:07:00)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Following on from my post above, we will now be going with the format originally posted, which is:
1) Time control 30 moves initial plus 1 day increment
2) All individual matches are two games
3) Players are to play in rating order. - RF now does have some kind of rating system, at least for WBCCC participants. I think more of their players have also come over to here, so have ratings here.
4) Xfccplay will be used for the games played at RF
5) Conditional move system will be used for the games played at RF. Games played here will be using the standard interface.
Both sides are going to have to make compromises. Ficgs players who are not already familiar with xfccplay are going to need to learn how to use it and will also need to join RF.
RF players, who are not members of here already, will need to sign up to here and learn how to use this interface.
I can not give a definite sign up by this date yet as some of the nuts and bolts are still being worked out.
Can everyone start saying if they are going to play? I hope this will be more than just the players who already play in WBCCC as I do hope it is the best players from both sites participating as well.
Thibault de Vassal (2012-06-08 18:05:51)
Second match v Rybka Forum
@ Nick : why not, I'd be glad to organize such a match with LSS but I will not propose it, many players here came from IECG/LSS.
@ Garvin : just tell me when I can announce the match in a newsletter, we'll create a new forum topic (and/or if you have a public email) for registrations.
Thibault de Vassal (2012-07-28 00:10:50)
FICGS IS BACK !!!!!!!!!
First of all, I've added 15 days to all players in running games because of the delay and the fact that many of us may have no access to internet during the summer vacation (this time is added to the 46 days, 13 hours and 20 minutes since the crash for players expected to play), this issue was discussed at Rybkaforum, of course it may be unfair to few players in certain games where their opponent had few time but I did not find a better balanced solution, sorry about that :(
Among other consequences, the current championships cycle will last 10 months instead of 8, and july correspondence chess ratings will be updated very soon.
Well, how to start... fortunately such an event is rare but possible, and following the Murphy's law, it happened (first time for me), the server's hard disk crashed and the least I can say is I've not been lucky, even if I obviously did some things wrong.
Of course I had enough data at home to rebuild all games until a few hours before the crash but I thought it was worth it to pause the server during a few days/weeks to recover more moves, and if possible ALL moves. I really hoped that it would work and at the end it did, but not completely... for unknown reasons. I had also other data to recover from the server, including some FICGS data that were not backuped correctly (my bad), because I did not think far enough 6 years ago when I coded the first FICGS scripts... That will be fixed very soon.
So, because the DDrescue process did not work -unlucky- just after the crash, my server provider (OVH in France) had to send me the hard drive and it took sooooo much time already :/
Then I tried to recover some files and the databases by myself and I learnt much on how to save a hard drive but each process was really long, it took several days again...
Finally none process completely succeeded, few sectors of the hard drive remained unreadable and unfortunately the FICGS database is divided into very numerous parts written everywhere on the disk.
At the end, I brought the disk to the very best professionals able to save it... the process was quite long again and it did not completely worked as well, for an unknown reason the current database was still not readable but they did much better than me at the end.
Finally the whole process was worth it, but I did not expect it could take so much time.... 46 days, 13 hours, 20 minutes. And that's a shame :(
Of course, I could have used a RAID 10 server, I was not favourable to this choice because it is not 100% safe as well, I don't know it enough and it's much more expensive. I'll reconsider it though.
But the other things I did wrong are clear anyway, I lacked of experience in such a situation and most important, I'll do now better backups also on another server every hour. Next time (if any), we'll lose at most 1 hour of moves but the server will be able to restart within 1 day.
One thing is sure, internet was really empty for me without FICGS during this long month and a half and I missed our tournaments too much so that happen again! Have no doubt, FICGS would not have stopped in all cases but once again I'm really sorry about that and all consequences... I can only hope that you'll enjoy your games as before.
Thanks for your understanding.
Best regards,
Thibault
Daniel Parmet (2012-06-09 05:36:02)
Second match v Rybka Forum
As far as a Rybka Forum match goes, as long as the time control is 30 days + 1 day increment then I would love to play.
As far as LSS match goes, I would only agree to play if it was on FICGS whree Thib would have control rather than the insane man that runs LSS.
Garvin Gray (2012-07-29 03:24:12)
Second match v Rybka Forum
I think we are now finding out which players would be most likely to represent ficgs in a ficgs v Rybka match.
Garvin Gray (2012-07-29 03:24:47)
Second match v Rybka Forum
I am intending to try and get this going again, but will wait a week till everything settles down and we are certain that the website is working as it should.
Nick Burrows (2012-07-29 04:23:08)
Second match v Rybka Forum
I would like to play if needed.
Garvin Gray (2012-07-29 05:04:52)
Second match v Rybka Forum
Everyone is needed :)
Read the conditions at the top of the page to see if you are comfortable with them.
Michael Aigner (2012-11-06 15:34:52)
The very unofficial World Championship
Hello everybody,
the computer chess enthusiast of the CSS forum are trying to organise a match "Houdini 3 versus Rybka Cluster".
The initiative came from the maintainer of the renowned IPON rating list. His estimation for two long games is 864 ducats. There more the better. I didn't observe how much was donated already, but quite a lot, and there is big enthusiasm about it. It seems that very good hardware for the Houdini side, and a way to collect the ducats at Playchess, have already been organized.
For details, see http://forum.computerschach.de/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=5093
(I guess Google translation can help if required, with the usual quirks.)
If somebody likes the idea it would be easy to participate there too.
All the best, Michael
Don Groves (2012-11-17 12:14:43)
The very unofficial World Championship
After two games the score is Houdini (16 cores) 2, Rybka Cluster (64 cores) 0.
Thibault de Vassal (2012-11-21 18:07:42)
The very unofficial World Championship
Bad start for Rybka, as expected.... thanks :)
Thibault de Vassal (2012-12-01 23:09:11)
Houdini 3.0
It seems that Houdini 3.0 is available as a commercial program for a few weeks at Cruxis website.
The 64-bit 4CPU would have reached a 3334 elo rating on the CCRL 40/4 list. This is about 90 points more than the free version Houdini 1.5a which seems to be a great improvement!
I just read on Wikipedia that Houdini was used by Viswanathan Anand [FIDE world champion]... It seems that it beats Rybka 4 in every match. In brief, Houdini is by far the best chess engine nowadays...
Thibault de Vassal (2012-12-06 11:28:11)
The very unofficial World Championship
After 4 games Houdini 3 leads by 3.5-0.5
Rybka Cluster - Houdini 3 (Game 3 - 2012/12/04): 1/2-1/2
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. c4 d6 6. Be2
Nxd4 7. Qxd4 Nf6 8. Nc3 Bg7 9. Be3 O-O 10. Qd2 Qa5 11. f3
Be6 12. Rc1 Rfc8 13. b3 a6 14. Na4 Qxd2+ 15. Kxd2 Nd7
16. g4 Re8 17. h4 h6 18. Nc3 Nc5 19. b4 Nd7 20. Nd5 a5
21. b5 Rac8 22. f4 Bf6 23. b6 Bb2 24. Rc2 Bxd5 25. exd5 Ba3
26. h5 e5 27. hxg6 exf4 28. Bxf4 Re4 29. gxf7+ Kxf7
30. Bxh6 Nxb6 31. Kd3 Rexc4 32. Rxc4 Nxc4 33. Bf4 Kg7
34. Ke4 Re8+ 35. Kf3 Ne5+ 36. Kg3 Rc8 37. Rb1 Rc3+ 38. Kh4
Bb4 39. Rc1 Ng6+ 40. Kg5 Nxf4 41. Rxc3 Bxc3 42. Kxf4 a4
43. a3 Bb2 44. Kf5 Bxa3 45. Bb5 Bc1 46. Bxa4 Bd2 47. Be8
Bc3 48. g5 Bd4 49. Kg4 Be5 50. Bb5 Kg6 1/2-1/2.
Houdini 3 - Rybka Cluster (Game 4 - 2012/12/05): 1-0
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. Nb5 d6 6. N1c3
Nf6 7. Bg5 a6 8. Na3 Be6 9. Nc4 Rc8 10. Bxf6 Qxf6 11. Nb6
Rb8 12. Ncd5 Qg6 13. Qd3 Be7 14. Nc7+ Kd8 15. Ncd5 f5
16. Qc3 fxe4 17. O-O-O Bxd5 18. Nxd5 Rc8 19. Kb1 Rf8
20. Qb3 b5 21. Qa3 Qg4 22. f3 exf3 23. Nxe7 Kxe7 24. Qxd6+
Kf7 25. gxf3 Qf5 26. Qd5+ Kf6 27. Bd3 Qe6 28. Qe4 g6 29. h4
Rcd8 30. a3 Rd7 31. h5 g5 32. h6 Nd4 33. Rhg1 Rfd8 34. Qe3
Rg8 35. Rde1 Qd5 36. Rg4 Qc5 37. Rg2 Qd5 38. Qg1 Qf7
39. Qf2 Rd5 40. c3 Ne6 41. Bc2 Nf4 42. Rg3 Rd7 43. Qe3 Qd5
44. Ka1 Re8 45. Rg4 Ne6 46. Bb1 Rc7 47. Ba2 Qc5 48. Qe4 Qd6
49. Rg2 b4 50. axb4 Nf4 51. Bb1 Qd7 52. Rd2 Qa4+ 53. Ba2
Qc6 54. Qc2 Rd7 55. Rxd7 Qxd7 56. Rd1 Qc7 57. Bb1 e4
58. Qa4 Qb8 59. Qd7 Re7 60. Rd6+ Ne6 61. Qc6 Qb5 62. Qxe4
Qe5 63. Qd3 Ra7 64. Rc6 a5 65. b5 Re7 66. b6 a4 67. Qd8 Kf7
68. Qc8 1-0.
Robert Knighton (2012-12-09 16:18:29)
The very unofficial World Championship
pretty sure Rybka cluster has the superior equipment.
Don Groves (2012-12-11 04:19:10)
The very unofficial World Championship
The Rybka cluster is a 64-core monster. Houdini is running on a 16-core system.
Michael Aigner (2012-12-19 17:17:23)
The very unofficial World Championship
Final standing: 4,5 : 1,5 for H3
But finaly Cluster Rybka was able to win a game :-)
[Event "105m+15s, unrated"]
[Site "Engine Room"]
[Date "2012.12.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Felix 2, Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Black "TryMe, Rybka Cluster 64 Cor"]
[Result "0-1"]
[PlyCount "201"]
[EventDate "2012.12.18"]
[TimeControl "6300+15"]
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 {0.34/28 249} dxe4 {0.21/23 216} 4. Nxe4 {0.33/29 0}
Nf6 {0.21/23 186 (Lf5)} 5. Nxf6+ {0.32/29 284} exf6 {0.21/24 0} 6. Nf3 {0.34/
29 154} Na6 {0.19/23 28} 7. a3 {0.34/29 122} Nc7 {0.17/24 60} 8. Bd3 {0.30/29
73} Qe7+ {0.16/24 250} 9. Be2 {0.31/31 0} Bf5 {0.18/25 261} 10. O-O {0.29/30 40
} Qd7 {0.16/25 128} 11. Nh4 {0.34/30 180 (c4)} Be6 {0.16/23 166} 12. c4 {0.28/
29 0} b5 {0.16/22 281 (Ld6)} 13. Re1 {0.27/27 197 (Lf4)} bxc4 {0.05/22 281
(Le7)} 14. Bxc4 {0.28/27 118} g6 {0.04/23 9} 15. Bd2 {0.16/28 564} Be7 {0.03/
24 0} 16. Rc1 {0.16/27 120 (Lxe6)} O-O {-0.01/22 229} 17. Nf3 {0.13/28 75} a5 {
-0.03/22 183 (Tfc8)} 18. Bf4 {0.04/25 142 (Dc2)} Bd6 {-0.15/23 370} 19. Bxe6 {
0.03/28 0} Nxe6 {-0.16/20 31} 20. Be3 {0.00/28 88 (Ld2)} Rfb8 {-0.13/21 269
(Tfc8)} 21. Qc2 {0.00/28 213} Ra6 {-0.14/23 1 (Tc8)} 22. Qe2 {0.05/26 134 (Dc4)
} Qb7 {-0.19/23 186 (Taa8)} 23. Rc2 {-0.04/28 250 (g3)} Rd8 {-0.19/23 338 (Lf8)
} 24. h3 {-0.06/26 88} Be7 {-0.20/22 47 (Lf8)} 25. h4 {-0.04/25 116 (Dd2)} Rd7
{-0.26/24 331 (Td5)} 26. Rc4 {-0.07/26 98 (Dd1)} Rb6 {-0.29/23 190} 27. Bc1 {
-0.11/30 0} Rd5 {-0.28/23 143} 28. Qd2 {-0.11/29 188 (Dc2)} Bd6 {-0.29/23 237
(Lf8)} 29. Qc2 {-0.19/25 141} Kg7 {-0.29/22 0} 30. Re4 {-0.23/24 104 (Te2)}
Rdb5 {-0.34/22 231} 31. Qd1 {-0.21/26 0 (Te1)} Bb8 {-0.43/24 269 (Th5)} 32. Qd2
{-0.26/25 82} Qd7 {-0.40/20 0 (Td5)} 33. Qc2 {-0.29/26 204 (Dh6+)} Qd5 {-0.46/
24 131} 34. Qe2 {-0.36/27 0 (Te3)} h6 {-0.68/21 127 (Lc7)} 35. Rc3 {-0.54/25
164 (Te3)} g5 {-0.91/21 121} 36. g3 {-0.81/27 326 (De1)} f5 {-1.15/22 180} 37.
Rxe6 {-0.59/29 0} Qxe6 {-1.16/22 11} 38. Qxe6 {-0.71/30 137} fxe6 {-1.08/25 0}
39. hxg5 {-0.57/29 0} hxg5 {-1.06/25 15} 40. Nxg5 {-0.57/30 53} Kf6 {-1.08/25
39} 41. Rc4 {-0.62/30 57} Rb3 {-1.08/25 32 (Ld6)} 42. Kg2 {-0.49/30 67} e5 {-1.
07/24 0} 43. Nf3 {-0.51/30 55} e4 {-1.07/25 0} 44. Ng1 {-0.48/31 98} Rd3 {-1.
11/27 56 (Ke6)} 45. Ne2 {-0.53/31 55} Ke6 {-1.08/25 0} 46. Rc5 {-0.55/30 53}
Ra6 {-1.08/26 35} 47. Rc4 {-0.52/30 37} Rb3 {-1.08/26 14} 48. Nc3 {-0.56/28 53
(Tc2)} Bd6 {-1.08/25 78} 49. Kf1 {-0.55/30 0} Ra8 {-1.16/23 58} 50. Na4 {-0.55/
29 4} Rh8 {-1.21/22 52 (Kd7)} 51. Be3 {-0.61/28 59} Kf7 {-1.33/22 17 (Kd7)} 52.
Rxc6 {-0.55/27 51} Bxg3 {-1.45/23 0} 53. Rc5 {-0.99/30 213} f4 {-1.69/26 0} 54.
Bxf4 {-0.99/28 1} Bxf4 {-1.69/26 7} 55. Rf5+ {-0.99/28 4} Ke6 {-1.67/26 7} 56.
Rxf4 {-0.99/28 0} Kd5 {-1.72/27 8} 57. Ke2 {-0.97/31 45 (Sc3+)} Kxd4 {-1.86/25
37} 58. Rf7 {-0.94/31 25} Rh2 {-2.24/24 23 (Th5)} 59. Rd7+ {-1.87/27 45} Kc4 {
-2.11/23 0} 60. Re7 {-2.01/29 103} Rbh3 {-2.53/25 0} 61. Rxe4+ {-1.86/29 61}
Kb3 {-2.58/24 0} 62. Nc5+ {-1.97/30 107 (Sb6)} Kxb2 {-2.55/24 12} 63. a4 {-2.
10/27 31} Kc3 {-2.51/24 24} 64. Re8 {-2.22/29 25 (Se6)} Kb4 {-2.78/23 53} 65.
Nd3+ {-2.30/28 0 (Sb7)} Kxa4 {-2.81/22 5} 66. Rb8 {-2.42/30 53} Rh4 {-2.98/25
0 (Ka3)} 67. Kd2 {-3.12/30 222} R2h3 {-3.30/25 0} 68. Rf8 {-3.07/28 37 (Tc8)}
Rd4 {-3.76/23 71 (Kb3)} 69. f3 {-2.94/25 14} Rh5 {-3.68/23 16 (Thh4)} 70. Kc3 {
-3.12/29 51} Rhd5 {-3.81/24 0} 71. Nb2+ {-3.21/29 34} Kb5 {-3.90/25 0} 72. Rb8+
{-3.23/30 35} Kc6 {-3.96/26 0} 73. Rc8+ {-3.31/29 48} Kd7 {-4.04/27 0} 74. Rf8
{-3.73/31 166} Rb4 {-4.38/26 0 (Ke7)} 75. Nd3 {-3.36/29 38} Ra4 {-4.21/22 0}
76. Kb3 {-3.37/29 31 (Sf4)} Rad4 {-4.24/23 14} 77. Nf2 {-3.43/31 20} a4+ {-4.
50/26 16} 78. Kc3 {-5.40/30 144} Kc7 {-7.45/27 59} 79. Ne4 {-6.34/29 75} a3 {
-7.46/25 63} 80. Ra8 {-6.34/32 0} Rd3+ {-5.11/15 2} 81. Kc2 {-6.52/32 28} Kb7 {
-12.55/22 0} 82. Ra4 {-8.77/32 122} R5d4 {-24.25/25 0} 83. Ra5 {-8.79/31 74}
Kb6 {-32.02/26 0} 84. Ra8 {-10.20/28 45} Rd8 {-61.24/26 0} 85. Ra4 {-11.82/31
46} Kb5 {-62.63/26 0} 86. Ra7 {-7.47/28 38} Kb4 {-60.64/27 103} 87. Rb7+ {-13.
80/27 0} Kc4 {-23.29/26 1} 88. Ra7 {-13.80/22 9 (f4)} Rc8 {-#18/24 351 (Te3)}
89. Kb1 {-13.79/28 24} Rb8+ {-#16/26 171 (Th8)} 90. Kc1 {-10.99/26 23 (Ka1)}
Kd4 {-#17/24 182 (Kb4)} 91. Rd7+ {-12.22/29 73} Ke3 {-#16/26 0} 92. Re7 {-12.
22/25 7} Rc8+ {-#15/29 83 (Kxf3)} 93. Kb1 {-19.95/27 10} Kxf3 {-#15/29 75} 94.
Ng5+ {-#22/35 0} Kf4 {-77.98/20 1} 95. Ne6+ {-#19/34 20} Kf5 {-#13/28 61} 96.
Ng7+ {-#19/34 23} Kg6 {-#13/29 55} 97. Re6+ {-#17/33 0 (Te8)} Kxg7 {-#12/32 135
} 98. Re2 {-#15/39 0} Kg6 {-#11/32 94 (Kf6)} 99. Rf2 {-#15/38 89 (Th2)} Kg5 {
-#11/37 108 (Tcd8)} 100. Ka1 {-#14/36 28 (Ka2)} Kh4 {-#10/39 69 (Kg4)} 101. Rg2
{-#13/36 6 (Te2) Felix 2,Houdini 3 Pro x64 gibt auf (Lag: Av=0.24s, max=0.8s)}
0-1
Garvin Gray (2012-12-13 16:52:12)
WBCCC 2013
This information is in regards to the World Blitz Correspondence Chess Championship for the year 2013.
It is held on Rybka Forum www.rybkaforum.net.
There is a full sub forum located on that forum that explains a lot of the rules, current list of players and specifics of information.
For a general run down, read on:
My name is Garvin Gray and I am the organiser and arbiter for this event. This event attempts to bring as many strong correspondence and freestyle players together from all the different playing sites, such as iccf, ficgs, playchess, lss and many other sites.
As the title says, this is a blitz event, meaning the time controls are short compared to normal correspondence play. This requires players to devote a greater share of their focus to these games than would normal correspondence play.
This event has been held for two years now, with the 2012 version still in progress. Feel free to browse the 2012 sub forum to see the games and how the structure works.
In the two years of this event, I feel that many new discoveries have been made and advanced freestyle chess knowledge has certainly been increased, to the benefit of all. Those who have participated in both events have gained a lot from their participation and I want to see this continue.
To allow this event to start and finish in one calendar year, we start in mid January and for 2013, it will finish in mid December. The format requires that you will play one game as white and one game as black in each round. There are 10 games in total.
Each round is paired as an individual swiss using the dutch pairing rules, but accommodations are made because each person must have one white and one black game per round.
Kibitizing is allowed and encouraged, but discussions about future positions, game analysis or anything else that could affect the result of the game is not allowed. Feel free to read the thread on game commentary.
There will also be a thread for each round that allows discussion of events during the round, general discussion about games or other general chit chat.
We do seek to provide a friendly, but competitive environment for those who want to advance their freestyle skills, or test themselves against other players from the different sites. This event will take up quite a bit of your time as the time control is fast, the play is difficult and the enjoyment factor high.
This is not meant to be a deterrent, but I feel I should make it clear that you need to be dedicated and willing to play each and every game/round.
Withdrawing or timing out mid game is not acceptable and will see you removed from the event. If you think you can not complete a particular round, it is better to contact me and have you withdrawn from that round. You are free to rejoin the event in these circumstances, but will receive zero points for those two missed games.
I hope to see more entries and good freestyling to everyone.
Cheers,
Garvin Gray
WBCCC 2013 Organiser
Garvin Gray (2012-12-13 16:52:52)
WBCCC 2013
If you wish to enter, feel free to let me know, preferably on Rybka Forum by private message.
Garvin Gray (2012-12-14 02:06:12)
WBCCC 2013
Thank you for your question Robert,
Entries close Wednesday January 9th and play starts Saturday January 12th.
All games are played on software called xfccplay, which is a Rybka designed program and so those who want to play in the event must have tested it and be familiar with how it is used, so I would need to know you are going to play in the next few days so we can organise test games.
Spyros Lois (2012-12-14 14:51:20)
Houdini 3.0
Rybka aquarium
Thibault de Vassal (2013-01-16 18:10:33)
FICGS admin scam me
Of course I meant players who understood what this site is....
If someone registers while thinking this site is a TV shop website, he may claim that there are no TVs enough to buy on here and say the admin that he should ask all players if they want TVs available to buy but well.... wouldn't it be quite ridiculous?
Players who are not aware that the use of chess engines is encouraged are very rare... The message "As a reminder, the use of chess engines (Rybka, Fritz, Shredder...) is allowed and encouraged in standard chess tournaments." is visible when anyone enters any rated chess tournament.
Is it really necessary to have this message blinking in big size on all pages?
Eros Riccio (2013-05-10 16:29:52)
Eros Riccio on his win in 8th chess WCH
Hi Alvin:
1) It depends on the position. Deciding a move may take from a few seconds to many days. My longest thought was 64 days for a move, in a decisive game of a past Italian Championship, the move was so hard for me that I also used the 30 days leave in order not to exceed the time limits for a single move. If someone is curious, it's move 40...Rh3 of the game Baiocchi - Riccio 0-1, 57 Italian Championship, played in 2007. Back then, after all my analysis with many different engines, I found out that Hiarcs was the engine that understood better than all the others that endgame, so I sticked to it mostly and its suggestions rewarded me with a win that allowed me to become Italian Champion.
2)The top 2 engines, which I usually use (and consider about equal) in infinite analysis at the same time with 3 cores each on my 6 cores computer are houdini 3 and deeprybka 4.1. Then come all the others, hard to pick a third place, probably critter or stockfish, depending on positions (stockfish is very strong in endgames, critter in tactical positions)
Eros Riccio (2013-05-12 01:55:59)
Eros Riccio on his win in 8th chess WCH
Ok, I have never played that time control. I think that would be a little too fast for my tastes, as I am used to take some long pauses between the moves quite often.
That's one reason why I have never joined the WBCCC Tournaments on rybka forum, as they had that kind of time control.
Attila Ba (2013-05-15 17:41:52)
Deep analysis - can it be improved?
The idea behind deep analysis is to store engine evaluations of chess positions in a permanent way and build an analysis tree out of them. Deep analysis is an improvement over simple engine analysis in two ways:
1) Permanent storage of analysis results makes them reusable. You don't have to analyse the same position from scratch over and over again (which is a waste of valuable CPU resources) rather you can build and improve upon your earlier results.
2) The search is configurable. You have control over which positions are examined and in what way. This gives you freedom to tailor the analyis to your own needs not having to rely on the defaults provided by your engine.
This idea is presented in a revolutionary way in the Deep Rybka Aquarium GUI. However using this framework I have encountered some problems. The lesser one and non lethal one is that draws by repetition are not handled correctly. This is for a reason: moves in the transposition table should be valued in an absolute way (regardless of the line which lead to them) in order to preserve the integrity of the tree. Since Aquarium has no means to incorporate lines, it simply ignores them
My other problem is that though the search is configurable I'm not absolutely certain about what is going on. It is not entirely clear to me exactly which nodes are selected for analysis.
These problems made me to try to come up with a deep analyis program of my own. After several failed attempts finally I have on my hand a solution which is not only capable of performing deep analysis but overcomes some of the difficulties of Interactive Deep Analyis (IDeA) provided by the Aquarium framework.
First I introduced a mechanism that can handle repetitions. In order to achieve this I attribute not one but two scores to each move and re-define the concept of root position already present in IdeA. The first score which I call 'idea' score is the same as presented in IdeA. The second is what I call 'alpha' score is calculated by minimaxing the tree from the root position taking into account repetitions.
Consider the following game:
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1 Nf8
The value of move 2. ... Nf8 at depth 18 by Houdini 3.0 is -19 centipawns. So the idea score of this move at depth 0 should be -19. Yet 2. ... Nf8 repeats the starting position. Therefore its alpha score with respect to a root equaling the starting position should be 0 centipawn which is exactly what my program calculates for it. ( For the sake of simplicity I don't require threefold repetition, since you would never allow your opponent to repeat a position if you have better ideas. )
So when my programs lists the tree it will present both scores for every move (which in most of the cases are equal of course - therefore this is mostly an aesthetic improvement rather than being a substantial one).
The improvement which I'm most interested in is that having full control of node selection now I have freedom to shape the tree search.
In order to keeps things simple I have only three parameters characterising the search:
1) engine depth
2) move distance (centipawns)
3) search depth
Engine depth means a fixed depth at which each move is analyzed. After long experimenting I have arrived at depth 18 as a good default for Houdini 3.0.
Move distance is a tolerance up to which moves are allowed into the analyis. For each position first the best move is determined. The search for alternative moves is continued until a move is found that has a valuation less than the valuation of the best move by 'move distance' centipawns (it is this 'distance' away from being the best move). The tree is then expanded for moves within 'move distance'.
To compensate for exponential growth of analyzed nodes I use a simple technique: at each ply after ply 1 the move distance is halved. So if the move distance at ply 0 and ply 1 is 20 centipawns, it will be 10 centipawns for ply 2, 5 centipawns for ply 3 and so on. This means that at greater depth less and less moves are allowed per position. So the analysis with greater depth slowly evolves into 'autoplay' rather than 'tree search'.
The other method to reduce exponential growth is the well known beta cut provided by alphabeta search. In order that all candidate moves in the root position and all candidate responses to them get proper values, I only allow beta cuts with ply 2 and deeper.
Once an alphabeta search of certain depth is carried out, the whole tree is mimimaxed out for the root. Now the initial evaluations of the root moves may change. This may make moves which initially fall out of the 'move distance' to become viable. So the search has to be repeated for those moves as well. This has to be done at every ply level.
My iterative search at a certain depth only ends when no new nodes are added by the alphabeta search (the tree is 'settled' for this depth). Only then the program is allowed to deepen the search (this I call 'refined' search).
With engine depth of 18 and move distance of 10 centipawns an average position can be analyzed to depth 10 within a matter of hours. This means a couple of hundred (possibly a couple of thousand) positions are analyzed to depth 18. Depth 10 deep analyis means an ultimate depth of 28 if you take into account that the engine depth is 18.
Whether this method has added ELO value over simple engine search is yet to be tested.
Ilmars Cirulis (2013-07-29 15:47:14)
Gossip about Evans gambit
Here's nice Evans game, where I played with white (at the end I made mistake and resigned):
(From http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=25194;pg=2 )
Anyone else want to share his Evans gambit CC games?
Garvin Gray (2013-12-05 01:44:30)
WBCCC 2014 Entries Open
Entries for WBCCC 2014 are now open at www.rybkaforum.net.
For those not aware of our event, quite a few of the players here can speak about their experiences in the event, but as organiser I can say that many of the regular players have gotten a lot out of their participation, have improved their play and a lot has been learnt about freestyle correspondence chess in the three years that this event has been running.
Prize money is offered, but how much is determined by players and others willingness to sponsor.
Feel free to contact me by replying to this message, sending me a pm at rybka forum or private message here. A private message here is the least reliable.
Full tournament rules:
1) Tournament will be single round robin, meaning every person will play each other once.
2) A players seed position will be determined by their order of entry. The earlier you enter, the higher your number. The first person to enter will receive number 1. The seed position determines which number a player is in the round robin.
3) Entries open December 1 2013
4) Entries close January 6 2014
5) Play begins January 13 2014
6) Each round will be paired at the start of the event, with the pairings for the entire year published at the start.
7) Each round will have a maximum of four games, most likely two games (just like 2011, 2012 and 2013). The number of games will always be kept to a bare minimum
8) There will be a maximum of six paired rounds.
9) The minimum time control will be 30 days plus 1 hour per move. If the number of games per round needs to increase from 2 to 3 or 4, the time control will be lengthened. For instance, if we have 21 players, so needing 4 games per round to keep the number of games even and use five rounds, instead of the six rounds in 2013.
9) Pairings for future rounds are subject to change due to withdrawal of players and unforeseen circumstances.
10) If a player withdraws, or their games time out without an explanation that is accepted by the arbiter, all their games will be removed from the event. In effect they are no longer a participant in the event and no effect on the final placings.
11) There will be an official entry form that all players will be required to fill out before their entry will be accepted. This is so in case of emergency the organisers have a method of contact outside of Rybka Forum. It will include also include a person other than yourself to contact. Whilst I understand this might seem unnecessary to some, I do hope that events from 2013 (death of Salvador Signes and our inability to get in contact with the family) do show the need for better communication methods.
12) Xfccplay- Xfccplay is the official software provided for WBCCC 2014. Xfccplay is provided for the free use for participants whilst in the event. A user name and password will be provided once registered. Also download instructions will be provided by private message and these must be followed to install the program. The program is provided by chessok and is not to be passed on to anyone and is provided for the sole use of playing in WBCCC. All moves, draw offers etc in WBCCC 2014 must be played on this software.
13) New entrants will be required to play a couple of test games on xfccplay before entries close so that the arbiter is certain that all players are familiar with the software and its features. The organisers do not want to see players withdrawing after the event has begun because they find that they are unfamiliar with the software and get upset because their clock is running. Entries are open from December 1 to January 6. That is over a month to become familiar with the software. The organisers will not accept entries from players who have not tested the software.
Thibault de Vassal (2014-02-15 23:44:49)
Standard time control abusers
Garvin, I know why Mariusz can play this way in general (like a few other ones) and this 'may have' nothing to do with any kind of abuse. Anyway this game seems really close to finish and everyone has the right to play games until the end. One could have chosen rules that say "every game with Rybka +/-5.0 is won" or even more complex rules involving evaluation and clocks, but this is not the case here (fortunately, anyway any rule can be abused). One can't know everyone's personal life.
Michael Sayers (2014-04-21 18:47:59)
Standard time control abusers
p.s. - not everyone uses an engine, some of us still do chess the old fashioned way rather than seeking a quick Rybka/Fritz/Houdini or whatever fix, and doing things the old fashioned way sometimes might need a few days ;-)
Thibault de Vassal (2016-01-27 00:38:13)
FICGS chess cup : proposal
Ok, I agree with that.
Here is a first try for FICGS cup rules:
"FICGS world cup championship is a multi stages tournament. All players who entered the waiting list are involved in single round-robin tournaments (2 stages or more will probably be necessary). All games during the whole cycle are played in 30 days + 1 day / move. As a reminder, the use of chess engines (Stockfish, Houdini, Rybka...) is allowed and encouraged in cup tournaments. Norms are possible according to FICGS general rules.
Round-robin tournaments are groups of 5 to 33 players (most probably 7 to 13). The winner of each group is qualified for the next stage. In case of equality, the player with most wins (and if necessary the player with the lowest tournament entry rating, then the lowest current rating) among the best scores, is declared winner and qualified for the next stage if any. Groups are built grading all players by rating and distributing them to obtain similar elo averages. There will be no replacements in these tournaments.
In the case of a withdrawal, the games won't be rated if a player warns the referee before the tournament starts and at most 15 days after a new stage started but the first one."
Anything to add?
Garvin Gray (2016-01-27 03:38:32)
FICGS chess cup : proposal
I think I have a different view on a couple of points, based in part in relation to the feedback I read to comments about TER.
Also, it comes from how I view the structure of the first stage, which is only a few groups and large numbers in each group ie 6 groups of 11 players, rather than 11 groups of 6 players.
========================================
FICGS world cup championship is a two stages tournament. All players who entered the waiting list are involved in single round-robin tournaments.
All games during the whole cycle are played in 30 days + 1 day / move. As a reminder, the use of chess engines (Stockfish, Houdini, Rybka...) is allowed and encouraged in cup tournaments.
Norms are possible according to FICGS general rules.
Round-robin tournaments are groups of 5 to 33 players (most probably 7 to 13). The winner of each group is qualified for the next stage. If there is a tie for first place in a group, each player advances to the second stage.
Groups are built grading all players by rating and distributing them to obtain similar elo averages. There will be no replacements in these tournaments.
=======================================
Effects- with only a small number of groups, and ties for first progressing, it is possible the second stage final could have 7,8,9 or 13 players. That will be determined.
But what I see is the main factor is that with large groups and ties going through, is all the players know they have to make a decent score to advance from the start. A good TER will not get the job done.
Also, if the scores at the top of a group are close, there is more incentive for players to attempt to get a score from their games as being the only one to advance knocks out everyone else, without any complaints about TER rules.
An entry limit will need to be put on when the final stage is double round robin. If there are six qualifiers to the final stage, then it should be DRR. 7 players in the final would make 12 games. Is that too much?
Thibault de Vassal (2016-02-11 21:28:37)
Stockfish 7, Komodo 9.2 or 9.3
Chess engines keep going, what do you think about the most recent ones? Do you prefer Stockfish 7, Komodo 9.3 and why?
Both engines reach about 3340 on the CEGT rating list, this definitely looks like stratosferic levels compared to the old Fritz, Rybka, Junior & so on :)
Scott Nichols (2016-02-16 14:45:49)
Stockfish 7, Komodo 9.2 or 9.3
Still use Rybka with some help from SF.
Thibault de Vassal (2016-03-06 23:30:33)
Stockfish 7, Komodo 9.2 or 9.3
Really? I thought Rybka was completely outplayed by her rivals now ^^
Thibault de Vassal (2017-10-20 14:28:34)
AlphaGo Zero
Ah... just like Rybka? Why "she"? (actually I meant "it", not "he")
Graham Kerr (2018-03-20 04:18:16)
Monte Carlo Analysis
I first came across Monte Carlo Analysis some years ago when i bought Fritz 12, which was rebranded as Rybka 4 and packaged with said engine. Back then the analysis mode was only usable with the Rybka engines, but more recently, now that Rybka author Vasik Rajlich is writing the engines for Fritz (since F15), those engines also work in MCA mode.
I don't know what's changed between Fritz 12 and Fritz 16, but i suspect only F16, F15 and older Rybka engines will work with MCA...
Thibault de Vassal (2019-11-11 20:29:20)
Komodo 13
I guess that it is very hard to answer as many of us have very subjective preferences (like the old times with the quatuor Shredder, Hiarcs, Fritz & Junior, at least before Rybka took it all)... As for me, I can't even answer for now but I always used to consider CEGT rating lists to bias my opinion ^^
Thibault de Vassal (2020-07-30 01:28:33)
Chess engines levels from 1985 to 2020
What do you think about these elo estimations for chess engines, from Mephisto to DeepBlue, then AlphaZero and Stockfish, Komodo & so on?
Old names surfacing: Rybka of course, all Chessbase engines (Fritz, Junior, Hiarcs & Shredder) but also older but well known names like Fruit, Crafty, Chess Tiger, Chess Genius, Chessmaster, Rebel, Saitek, Nimzo and many others... Those graphics are always funny to watch :)
Thibault de Vassal (2020-12-08 15:33:13)
What happened to all the players?
Thanks for the enlightments!
1) Interesting idea, I did not think it this way but that sounds credible.
2) Too many possible reasons IMHO, first could be the lower rate benefits/investment, added to the constantly growing place of chess engines (particularly since the Rybka era) in the game and the way our lives changed all over the years (real life, social networks, Netflix & so on).
3) That's quite surprising to me but well, at least chess found a way :)
4) I did not hear about that rule yet, what's the idea?
Ilmars Cirulis (2023-12-27 19:30:42)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
I tried to browse it using web.archive.org website, but I don't remember when (which year) and where (which place in the forum) it was posted...
There was some collective analysis of Fried Liver, after some poster postulated that black is okay in this variation.
Thank you in advance and Happy New Year of 2024! :)
Thibault de Vassal (2024-01-01 01:10:03)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Hmmm... should be a thematic tournament some time ;) Happy new year Ilmars!
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-05 21:18:39)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Happy New Year for you too, Thibault! :)
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-06 20:27:54)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Does someone want to test this variation (to play it with white and try to win):
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Rxe5+ Kd8 14. Ne4 Qg6 15. a3 Bf5 16. Ng3 Bxc2 17. Qf3 Nd3 18. Rf5 Bd6 19. Bxd3 Bxd3 20. Qxd3 Kc7 21. Bd2 Rhf8
I'm currently analysing it.
The 21... Rae8 seems to be losing (I lost the game against Scott Nichols convincingly).
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-10 15:09:34)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
21... Rhf8 against Scott ended in draw.
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Rxe5+ Kd8 14. Ne4 Qg6 15. a3 Bf5 16. Ng3 Bxc2 17. Qf3 Nd3 18. Rf5 Bd6 19. Bxd3 Bxd3 20. Qxd3 Kc7 21. Bd2 Rhf8 22. Qf3 Rae8 23. Rd1 b6 24. a4 Kd7 25. h4 Qe6 26. h5 g6 27. hxg6 Qxg6 28. a5 bxa5 29. Ra1 Rxf5 30. Qxf5+ Qxf5 31. Nxf5 h5 32. Rxa5 Re2 33. Rxa7+ Ke6 34. Nxd6 Rxd2 35. Nc4 Rxd4
36. b3 Rd3 37. Ra6 Rxb3 38. Rxc6+ Kf5 39. Nd6+ Ke5 1/2-1/2
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-11 08:10:22)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Then we explored 13.Ne4 a bit:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Ne4 Qg6 14. a3 Bf5 15. Ng3 Bxc2 16. Qf3 Nd3 17. Re2 Ke8 18. Rxc2 Ne1 19. Qe2 Nxc2 20. Bd3 Qe6 21. Qxc2 Kd8 22. Bd2 Bd6 23. Re1 Kc7 24. b4 a6 25. Nf5 e4 26. Bxe4 Raf8 27. g3 Qd7 28. Nxd6 Qxd6 29. a4 Rf7 30. b5 axb5 31. axb5 Ra8 32. Qb1 1/2-1/2 (Scott offered a draw which I gladly accepted.)
Scott Ligon (2024-01-11 23:22:00)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
I checked the Fried Liver with Stockfish 16, just far enough to convince myself that black can probably hold the draw. I'll post five key lines along with the eval at the end of each line, including the FEN encoding of the position being evaluated. I went through white's options and I see no way for white to improve on these lines, although 6 d4 instead of Nxf7 should also be checked. Anyway here are the line evaluations.
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Rxe5+ Kd8 14. Ne4 Qg6 15. a3 Bf5 16. Ng3 Bxc2 17. Qf3 Nd3 18. Rf5 Bd6 19. Bxd3 Bxd3 20. Qxd3 Kc7 21. Bd2 Rhf8 22. Rd1 b6 23. Bc1 Qe6
r4r2/p1k3p1/1ppbq2p/3n1R2/3P4/P2Q2N1/1P3PPP/2BR2K1 w - -
+ (0.79)
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Rxe5+ Kd8 14. Ne4 Qg6 15. a3 Bf5 16. Ng3 Bxc2 17. Qf3 Nd3 18. Rf5 Bd6 19. Bxd3 Bxd3 20. Qxd3 Kc7 21. Bd2 Rhf8 22. Rd1 b6 23. Qb1 Rfe8
r3r3/p1k3p1/1ppb2qp/3n1R2/3P4/P5N1/1P1B1PPP/1Q1R2K1 w - -
+ (0.80)
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Rxe5+ Kd8 14. Ne4 Qg6 15. a3 Bf5 16. Ng3 Bxc2 17. Qf3 Nd3 18. Rf5 Bd6 19. Bxd3 Bxd3 20. Qxd3 Kc7 21. Bd2 Rhf8 22. Qf3 Rae8
4rr2/ppk3p1/2pb2qp/3n1R2/3P4/P4QN1/1P1B1PPP/R5K1 w - -
+ (0.70)
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Ne4 Qg6 14. a3 Bf5 15. Ng3 Bxc2 16. Qf3 Nd3 17. Re2 Ke8
r3kb1r/pp4p1/2p3qp/3np3/2BP4/P2n1QN1/1Pb1RPPP/R1B3K1 w - -
+ (0.63)
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qe2 Ke7
r1b2b1r/pp2k1pp/2p2q2/3np3/1nBP4/2N5/PPP1QPPP/R1B2RK1 w - -
+ (0.44)
Scott Ligon (2024-01-12 01:54:00)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
The Lolli (6 d4) is no better for white. Black survives in the following line, and white has no other options worth checking.
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. d4 Nxd4 7. c3 b5 8. Bd3 h6 9. Nxf7 Kxf7 10. cxd4 exd4 11. O-O Rb8
1rbq1b1r/p1p2kp1/7p/1p1n4/3p4/3B4/PP3PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w - -
+ (0.51)
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-12 22:23:11)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Interesting! Thank you!
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-12 22:25:56)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
At what depth are these evals made?
Scott Ligon (2024-01-12 22:51:02)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
For the 6 lines I posted, those eval depths are, in order:
46, 47, 45, 46, 45, 43.
For the line with the highest eval of +0.80, the win percentage for white is given as 27.4%, so further analysis might be warranted but that's where I left it. My understanding is that Stockfish 16 changed the semantics of the numeric evaluations. An eval of +1.0 used to mean white had a one pawn advantage (in some very abstract sense), but now +1.0 is supposed to correlate with a 50% probability that white has an objectively winning position.
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-13 09:16:39)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qd1 Ke7 12.Re1 h6 there is also 13.Bb3 with +0.64 for white (at depth 52). Something more to explore. :)
Scott Ligon (2024-01-13 20:47:35)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
In that case, I don't think white can improve on the following line (depth 49):
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Bb3 Bf5 14. Bd2 a5 15. Nxd5+ Nxd5 16. c4 Nb4 17. Rxe5+ Kd8 18. a3 Nd3 19. Bxa5+ Rxa5 20. Rxa5 Kc7
5b1r/1pk3p1/2p2q1p/R4b2/2PP4/PB1n4/1P3PPP/R2Q2K1 w - -
+ (0.45)
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-13 21:00:42)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Thank you!
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-16 15:48:03)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
I put all the variations after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qd1 here: https://lichess.org/study/MYMU6aQ7
Will add 11.Qe2 variation(s) too a bit later.
Scott Ligon (2024-01-16 20:31:54)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
The Fried Liver just seems like a bad choice for black when the main line (5... Na5) equalizes, and if you want something different there's 5... b5 where white gets some advantage with 6. Bf1 but more frequently plays 6. Bxb5 where black is again equal and can expect to be more familiar with the position. I had a look at your lichess study. Are you mainly just taking notes on the computer evaluations of various lines as a general reference, or is this something you actually intend to learn in detail so you can play it?
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-01-17 13:47:31)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Lichess study is for reference, yes. Also it's nice to have everything in one place, where it can be browsed through (and can be downloaded as PGN file, if necessary).
Yes, I agree that Fried Liver is bad choice for black. Not going to learn it for OTB, definitely.
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-02-18 18:00:07)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Nb4 9. O-O c6 10. d4 Qf6 11. Qd1 Ke7 12. Re1 h6 13. Rxe5+ Kd8 14. Ne4 Qg6 15. a3 Bf5 16. Ng3 Bxc2 17. Qf3 Nd3 18. Rf5 Bd6 19. Bxd3 Bxd3 20. Qxd3 Kc7 21. Bd2 Rhf8 22. Rd1 b6 - still don't know for sure if this is a draw or maybe white can win somehow...
When is thematic tournament(s) happening? :sweat_smile:
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-02-18 18:06:06)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
12.--- Qg6 is losing, I believe (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qd1 Ke7 12.Re1), therefore such focus on 12... h6 variation.
Ilmars Cirulis (2024-02-24 21:47:45)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Played thematic game with Bahadir Ozen at LSS, added it to Lichess study:
https://lichess.org/study/MYMU6aQ7/dA04utCi
It ended in interesting, imho, draw. :)
Ilmars Cirulis (2025-03-17 13:22:58)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
12.--- Qg6 seems to be draw too.
Ulises Pineda (2025-03-20 00:31:48)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Hello, I was a Rybka Forum moderator for several years, as Uly/Vytron, and the person with most games at their Correspondence Chess section.
I've been amassing a great deal of chess analysis since 2007 in Bookup files (later named Chess Openings Wizard files) so I have all the analysis that was posted on the forum.
It was able to hold up for years, until Sotckfish NNUE appeared, that was the software that obsoleted the analysis, as so many moves were misevaluated (it said white had a big advantage when it was the opposite, and vice versa) and Stockfish NNUE was providing, at low depth, moves that were refuting entire variations and trees.
It was at that point I realized I had more than a decade of useless analysis, and it's not just the Fried Liver, it happened in all of chess. In all the positions I analyzed for my games.
Which means any recovered analysis from rybkaforum would be garbage, since I do have it but had to start new trees from scratch because nothing worthwhile could be recovered from the old ones, and it was more trouble than it was worth, Stockfish NNUE would produce variations that from scratch would be more useful to generate than wasting time refuting the old lines.
At the end of the day, getting unpublished was a fortune because people will not waste time looking at those obsolete lines.
Ilmars Cirulis (2025-03-22 13:40:53)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Thank you for your answer, Ulises.
Stefan Haack (2025-03-22 15:20:44)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
I DONT FOUND THIS on lichess a link please
Ilmars Cirulis (2025-03-22 17:25:48)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
My bad, maybe I have deleted the study... I will take a look
Ulises Pineda (2025-03-29 18:08:40)
Fried Liver analysis on rybkaforum.net?
Have you checked https://www.chessdb.cn/queryc_en/ ? It probably has all the relevant lines of the Fried Liver already analyzed.
There are 6 results for rybka in wikichess.
Peter Marriott (1816)
g4
Grob's Attack named after Swiss IM Henri Grob (1904-74).
White intends to put pressure along the h1-a8 diagonal while also threatening to launch a Kingside pawn storm.
The opening is considered inferior for White (-0.32 at this stage of analysis 29/06/2008), but it avoids endless theoretical discussions and cannot be avoided by Black. The positions are often highly tactical and natural play by Black may lead him into several traps.
Evaluation notes from Kjetil Prestesaeter:
I have added all known named lines plus other lines favored by Rybka (Rybka 2.3 mp 32-bit, 17ply). Many of the named lines seem to be more romantic than strong. Please extend the analysis if you have spare time and computer power.
Notes by Peter Marriott:
I used to use the Grob in many blitz games I have played against humans. I actually had good success, not because it is a good move, but because it confused many players. On a chess server, I actually achieved a rating from 16-1700 by playing it. Many, many players simply responded by ...d5 and after I played Bg2, they took the g4 pawn, which led me to win a whole bunch of games by playing 3.c4, with an eye on b7. Maybe the right way to play this for black is simply to play 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 then c6. Then white wonders what he's gonna do (At least I did!)
============
Contributors : Benjamin Aldag, Gary Gruwé, Kjetil Prestesaeter, Peter Marriott
Terry Godat (2088)
e4 f5
This is Inving gambit. this gambit is the most dengerous weapon to use for black, as it can turn on the face because of Qh5+ the inving Gambit accepted have only four variant possible, After Fxe5. 2... g6, 2... h5 2... Nf6 and 2.. Kf7
the gambit can also be refused with , Nc3, Nf3, d3, f3, g3... or white can play the Advence Inving Gambit Variant (AIGV).
This gambit is not a bad move tough it's is -0.37 for Rybka. ( This opening has no name, i just name it like that for fun) it can also be an inversed From gambit.
============
This gambit, the Fred, is completely unjustified, except as a joke.
Contributors : Yugi Inving, Terry Godat
Yugi Inving (1280)
d4 Nf6 Nf3 d5 Nc3 Nc6 e3 g6 Bd3 Bg7 Bd2 O-O O-O a6 Re1 Nb4 a3 Nxd3 cxd3 Bf5 e4 dxe4 dxe4 Bg4 h3 Bxf3 Qxf3 Qxd4 Rad1 Rfe8 e5 Nd7 e6 fxe6 Rxe6 Bf6 Bf4 Qc4 Nd5 Nb6 Re4 Red8 Rde1
alright, i didn't see it, a queen like this. to think Rybka play this...
============
Contributors : Yugi Inving
Yugi Inving (1280)
d4 Nf6 Nf3 d5 Nc3 Nc6 e3 g6 Bd3 Bg7 Bd2 O-O O-O a6 Re1 Nb4 a3 Nxd3 cxd3 Bf5 e4 dxe4 dxe4 Bg4 h3 Bxf3 Qxf3 Qxd4 Rad1 Rfe8 e5 Nd7 e6 fxe6 Rxe6 Bf6 Bf4 Qc4 Nd5 Nb6 Re4 Red8 Rde1 Qc2 Nxf6+ exf6 Rc1 Qxb2 Rxc7 Nc8 Qe3 Nd6 R4e7 Nf7 Rxf7
End of a game, me versus Rybka.
============
Contributors : Yugi Inving
Terry Godat (2088)
e4 e5 f4 exf4 Nf3 g5 h4 g4 Ne5 Nf6 Bc4 d5 exd5 Bd6 d4 Nh5 O-O O-O Rxf4
============
Contributors : Terry Godat
I'm involved in a thematic King's Gambit tournament and came across this game (Boehme-Whitman) during my research. I'm astonished that no one ever considered this move before. Rybka considers this move to be at least as good as 10.Nxg4, which is known to be good for Black after 10...Qxh4 11.Nh2 Ng3!
Normajean Yates (1975)
e4 c5 Nf3 d6 d4 cxd4 Nxd4 Nf6 Nc3 a6 Bg5 e6 f4 Qb6 Qd2 Qxb2 Rb1 Qa3 e5 h6 Bh4 dxe5 fxe5 Nd5
Rybka 3 opening book line. According to the author Jeroen Noomen:
"In 2007 the Poisoned Pawn variation of the Sicilian Najdorf was experiencing a crisis. White players found out that after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 the old move 10.e5!? was not so easy for black and they scored a few impressive victories. The Poisoned Pawn finally refuted? Not really! After 10.e5!? h6 11.Bh4 dxe5 12.fxe5 black has a move that gives him full equality: 12... Nd5!
"
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Contributors : Normajean Yates
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