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Game result (chess) C. Koch, 2197 R. Kopytov, 2112 1-0 See game 24555 |
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André Diamant wins Brazilian Chess Championship W. Utesch wins the 2nd FICGS candidates final Veselin Topalov wins Pearl Spring in Nanjing Miroshnichenko wins Ukrainian Championship 2008 Vassily Ivanchuk wins Benidorm tournament Armenia wins gold at 38th Chess Olympiad Deep Fritz 11 is available (Chessbase.com) Dominguez-Perez wins World Blitz Championship Hikaru Nakamura wins Cap d'Agde tournament Viswanathan Anand is FIDE world champion 2008 more chess news... |
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Chi-Min Oh 7d wins London open Lee Sedol 9p beats Kang Dongyun in Korean Myeongin Kong Jie & Lee Sedol will play Samsung Cup final Crazy Stone wins Computer Go UEC Cup in Tokyo Fan Hui 2p wins Paris Meijin title more Go news... |
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Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-05 15:19:03)
FICGS world championship
Hello to all.
Please post here all your questions / suggestions about the FICGS world championship rules.
There are many answers to bring yet : about the building of groups, who exactly will play which stage, etc...
It seems that many players like this scheme : knockout / round-robin tournament, that is more fair and much more interesting than a pure round-robin cycle. The final match rules are particularly hard (24 games, 30 days + 1 day / move), but I think it's a good way to make it different and give value to the title. Rules are not far from the old classical world championship, the champion will only play the next final match against the challenger...
FICGS WCH Rules :
http://www.ficgs.com/membership.html#tournament
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-06 16:58:07)
FICGS cup...
Bonjour Sebastien.
Non, pas encore. D'abord pour ne pas multiplier les tournois, au risque de diviser leur popularité. Le problème reste d'imaginer une formule un peu originale, qui ne ressemble pas trop au championnat du monde (donc peut-être éviter le classique cycle de tournois round-robin). A suivre...
(about a FICGS cup, the problem is to imagine an original scheme, that doesn't look like too much to the FICGS world championship... a classical round-robin cycle is maybe 'not enough' to justify this special event)
Sebastien Marez (2006-05-08 20:03:32)
FICGS
Bonsoir, Il sera difficile d'éviter la fourmule du Championnat du monde car il faut qu'il soit ouvert à tous. C 'est le cas pour tous les autres sports.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-09 16:08:33)
Cup / Wch
Bonjour Sébastien.
J'avoue que j'ai du mal à trouver de quoi justifier l'existence d'un tournoi "cup" utilisant la même formule ou presque que le championnat du monde, à part diviser l'intérêt et la fréquentation de l'un et de l'autre... Il est bien dommage que le système suisse ne puisse pas s'appliquer aux tournois de jeux par correspondance... Peut-être, pourquoi pas, proposer une coupe (façon championnat) d'échecs 960, ou réservée aux joueurs classés au dessus d'une barre ELO à déterminer...
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-09 16:46:25)
Qualifying
I didn't know this system !? Is it really efficient ? How to designate the (4) winners of the round-robin cycle ? Then the semi-final (players bye :/) seems to be a stage more... Means at least 6 months more to end the cycle.
I think the combined round-robin / knockout cycle is fast and fair enough... The 2 first players (designated by the highest ratings in case of equality) of each round-robin tournament will be qualified for the next stage.
The rules for world championship have been updated.
Trent Parker (2006-05-12 00:31:30)
Banned players
Hi Thibault! I noticed that there is a banned/deleted player who has entered the world championship. You might want to fix this before the closing date :D.
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2006-05-13 17:58:51)
Swiss
Hello Thibault, Chessfriend.com has started the Championship as a 3 rounds Swiss tournament. Why don't we try this form under the name FICGS-CUP? I have liked the mode. Heinz-Georg
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2006-05-14 00:47:20)
Swiss
Hello Thibault these are the "rules" (see at http://www.chessfriend.com/ and then Tournaments-CFC World-Championship-CFC Championship 2003)
Modus: 3 rounds Swiss à 10 games each. ... Every player is allowed to participate in all 3 rounds. Pairings of the 1st round are based on rating. We will build equal groups where possible. In the second round we will do the pairings so that be build at first 3 groups depending on score and rating. Among this three groups we will build new tournaments which should be of about equal rating.. Third round will be paired in the same way with the exception that the first group will be the strongest (score and rating). Normally two players should play during a championship cycle only one game. If it will be necessary in a following round that two players play a second game, this game should be played with revised colours.
I will send you more information.
Dinesh De Silva (2006-05-14 07:43:13)
An alternative to Cup Championship
In my opinion, instead of a Cup Championship, perhaps a Knock Out Rapid Championship maybe more interesting!? This is simply an idea. (Otherwise, FICGS might begin to look too similar to other correspondence chess sites, don't you think?!)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-14 16:07:16)
"Blitz" cup...
Thank you Heinz Georg, for the files you sent to me.
Now I understand better the work and ideas of Reimund Lutzenberger in Chessfriend.com, a great experimentation field for sure...
I first concluded some things not to do in FICGS WCH. In example, a player rated 2500 (even provisional rating from fide) shouldn't have to play in the first stage against a low-rated player in a world championship [but that could be possible in a cup tournament cycle]. So I'll add special rules for high rated players (who are not qualified for the WCH knockout tournament) to begin directly in a 2nd stage tournament...
I agree with Dinesh, the aim is not to use the same formulas, even good ones. Anyway I think we can find new interesting (better :)) ones. But as the WCH is already a rapid tournament cycle, the CUP could be an unrated "blitz" (30 days per game with no increment, or even 10 days + 1 hour / move) knockout (2 games / match + playoffs) !! Something quite "brutal" and unfair between correspondence chess & classical rythms. What do you think ?
Sebastien Marez (2006-05-14 19:12:09)
Team Championship
Thibault, Je sais, je vais encore lancer un sujet de discorde, Pensez pouvoir réaliser un championnat par equipes? Sebastien Marez
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-15 08:33:32)
Team Championship
In brief : The idea of a team championship is very good, but of course it's too early... Such a championship could be a 2 stages round-robin tournament with teams of 6 or 7 players.
Bonjour Sébastien. Pourquoi discorde ? :) Au contraire...
Pour le moment j'envisageais des matchs par équipe occasionnels (FICGS vs. fédération ou autre serveur de jeu).
Le problème d'un championnat est qu'il soit représentatif, il serait donc souhaitable (dans le cas par pays) de pouvoir monter des équipes complètes (6 ou 7 joueurs) et que les plus forts joueurs trouvent un "intérêt" à défendre leurs couleurs (dépend de la popularité du serveur). L'idée est de toutes manières des plus intéressantes, mais le serveur doit gagner en confiance et en expérience sur la durée, il est encore tôt. Par contre je me demande comment se déroulerait un tel championnat... Un tournoi toutes ronde (round-robin) entre 5 à 9 pays, divisés par groupes, puis une phase finale ?!
Dinesh De Silva (2006-05-15 13:49:57)
Team Championship
I like Sebastien Marez's idea, for a team championship somewhere in the near future. It could perhaps be termed FICGS Team World Championship. It's a good way of building camaraderie between chess players too!
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-20 18:39:06)
Equality rule
Hello Daniel.
If the 2300 player scores 5.5 at this tournament, and the 1800 player scores 5, we can imagine the 2300 player makes a bad performance as well (possibly lower than the 1800 player), so the 1800 player should win ?
There's no perfect system, only conditions, but this rule prevents from 'accidents' and grants the rating that is the best players strength indicator. I think this is a way to ensure that the best players will reach the final stages. Because this is a world championship...
Dave Grobler (2006-05-20 21:09:49)
team championship
Hello This is my first post....so I apologise for any mistakes. A team tournament should be organised as soon as possible . It is an excellant way of building up friendships.I think at the moment we have too few members to start . But this site grows quickly ! Teams should start to form now !
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-21 13:02:10)
Teams
Hello Dave. You're probably right...
Feel free to tell me how you imagine this team championship ? How many players by team ? Should the teams have a leader (would designate players, or selected by elo ?) ? Knockout or round-robin cycle ? etc...
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-26 11:04:11)
Go (weiqi) world championship
Hello to all.
I've updated the rules for go world championship and go tournaments. Now the results in go tournaments qualify for the wch first stage round-robin tournament. See the rules.
It's more logical, as there's no rating system here for Go, and I think more people will play soon...
Have good games !
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-27 03:30:57)
Ok.
Hello Ryaad. I'll replace you by another player soon.
Go tournaments are unrated but count for the FICGS championship qualifications, so I'll replace forfeiting players as much as possible.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-28 01:06:10)
Other quotes by famous chess players
"I really believe that Go is destined to take the place of Chess as the leading intellectual game of the Occident, just as it has reigned supreme in the Orient for some four thousand years."
- Edward Lasker, Go and Go-Moku, c. 1934
"While the Baroque rules of chess could only have been created by humans, the rules of go are so elegant, organic, and rigorously logical that if intelligent life forms exist elsewhere in the universe, they almost certainly play go."
- Edward Lasker, international chess master
"You don't have to be really good anymore to get good results. What's happening with Chess is that it's gradually losing its place as the par excellence of intellectual activity. Smart people in search of a challenging board game might try a game called Go."
- Hans Berliner, The New York Times, Feb 6, 2003
"... {it is} something unearthly ... If there are sentient beings on other planets, then they play Go."
- Emanuel Lasker, chess world champion
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-28 17:17:21)
Chess & go variants.
Ok David... But Chess 960 isn't chess 'training', as Go 9x9 could be. I think unrated chess tournaments wouldn't have much success.
Let's see if other players want to play go 9x9 ... I think the point is about rating and championship. As there is no rating system and only a title for 19x19, players couldn't be attracted by go 9x9 if there isn't the same challenge. I changed the rules in this way, now more players will play continuously Go tournaments and compete to have a chance to play the Go world championship tournament.
David Grosdemange (2006-05-28 22:08:48)
challenge ?
if trying to become the ficgs go world champion is a challenge , playing go can be a challenge for chess players who discover go . and beginning with 19*19 is a little hard ...
Steven DuCharme (2006-05-29 22:20:18)
Bobby & Boris
Casting is underway in Los Angeles for a movie based on the 1972 World Championship.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-05-29 23:03:44)
Team Championship
Hello to all.
I'm now promoting the site in this way, a team championship will start as soon as possible. (waiting for more players)
Trent Parker (2006-05-30 01:50:25)
Quoting Thibault..... My response
Feel free to tell me how you imagine this team championship ? How many players by team ?
I think only 4 per team would be needed. If there are big countries perhaps they could have multiple teams eg. France A, France B etc etc. Four seems to be the best number. It is used in the OTB Olympiad.
Should the teams have a leader (would designate players, or selected by elo ?) ?
IMHO ELO would be best.
Knockout or round-robin cycle ?
I'd prefer round robin. (although i might not have a team yet :D )
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-01 15:47:28)
Replacement
I did not forget you, Ryaad. (time sometimes misses, sorry to your opponents..)
Does anyone would accept to replace Ryaad in the first Go tournament that started a few days ago ? Thanks in advance.
Reminder : If players wish to qualify for the FICGS Go championship, they must be among the 11 players who obtained the best results in Go tournaments (see rules).
I think 2 (maybe 3 if the number of players increase quickly) victories in tournaments should assure a place in the WCH tournament.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-02 17:48:34)
Go rules
Hello Lionel. I just read the 1988 version of the official rules of the Chinese Weiqi Association.
The point here is to play with the most interesting & fair rules, not 'official' ones or others if it could be improved...
Note that FICGS chess rules have a peculiarity : 50 moves rules isn't applied if the mate can be forced. FICGS chess world championship rules are not (of course) the rules used by FIDE. I spent much time thinking about rules which are IMO the best thing in this server and I think most players will appreciate these points.
I think avoiding draws in Go is interesting because energy consuming could be too different in some games and lead to unfair situations in tournaments.
Hash keys don't solve all problems, 'superko' situations could remain as draw, furthermore these special rules could avoid any ambiguity. It is clear, it brokes 'symmetry' and I feel it is fair enough.
Then, rules exist to be enforced ! :) .. More seriously, I'm not convinced these new rules don't make sense, even if it needs adjustments. Still inquiring, but unless I find (or you convince me :)) a solid argument in another way, I think I'll apply them.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-06 16:40:04)
Team championship
Many good ideas... :)
I'll post a news soon, inviting players who want to lead their country team to give me an email where they can be contacted by players.
So far, the rules :
- The leader of each team should be from the country he's playing for.
- If several players ask to lead the same team, the current chess rating will decide.
- Leaders will choose candidate players for his team and the "board" (1, 2, 3 or 4) they will play.
- Players from any country can play with another country team. (all players can play for only one team)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-06 18:07:22)
Rules for team championship
I was thinking about... The possibility for players to defend another country is very interesting, but it may have many consequences that could complicate a lot the process for building teams and the choice for players who want to support a team or another, waiting for leaders decision etc... Furthermore, there could be confusion in the crosstables.
Sorry about that Dinesh, but teams should be 4 players from the same country. Maybe you could invite some other players from Sri Lanka ?
So, rules :
- All games (rated) will be played in 40 days + 40 days / 10 moves.
- If several players ask to lead the same team, the current chess rating will decide.
- Leaders will choose players for their team (4 players by team) and the "board" (1, 2, 3 or 4) they will play.
Marc Lacrosse (2006-06-06 23:16:56)
No national teams here !
I left my own national federation and the whole ICCF system partly because I find those national teams championships at most boring and uninteresting and at worst reminiscent of some of the worst 20th century nationalistic concepts.
Why should we have national teams here ???
... to confirm that France is larger than Feroe islands and smaller than China ?
This is pretty ridiculous IMHO.
I can't see anything interesting in this idea.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-07 00:38:57)
Go / Chess
Hello Tommie.
I chose not to implement a Go rating system for several reasons, first and main is: a quite true correspondence Go rating may be very (!) long to achieve, maybe even impossible. It seems to me that the challenge could be elsewhere ie. tournament results, to qualify for the FICGS championship tournament.
About the rating list, so far all new players appear in a unique rating list, soon there will be an established rating list, a provisional rating list and a new player rating list.
About this rating for Ion (2600), where did you see it exactly ?
... at last what happens with the Go applet ? You have to click on 'game description'. If it doesn't work, feel free to tell me what game you try to watch and what happens... Thanks in advance :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-07 00:33:53)
To be or not to be...
Hello Marc.
That's an interesting point of view ! The first reason such a championship could be interesting IMO is, as Dinesh said, it may be a good way of building relationship and camaraderie between players... I don't think this tournament will be a kind of stake for countries (so nationalism is probably very far from here, if it changes I'll reconsider this point), it's not very important and has positive points, so I just say "why not ?"
Dinesh De Silva (2006-06-07 06:59:09)
Interesting Debate!
Hi, everyone It's quite an interesting debate......regarding whether to name teams after countries or not. Marc, for players like you and I, perhaps we could find some sorta compromise if the team rules allow it. As Thibault says, the problem is that even though our (small)countries hardly have any players interested in correspondence chess to form national teams, playing under another national/country banner is kinda a unique situation (IF allowed). It all depends on whether future FICGS team championship rules might allow it or not. Any creative ideas/suggestions left to make?!
Dinesh De Silva (2006-06-09 17:55:32)
Good debate regarding team championships
Thibault, it was good discussing these ideas. I too think that postponing team championship might be a good idea, until some of the issues have been sorted out and some sorta common concensus is reached.
Sebastien Marez (2006-06-10 07:38:09)
Team Championship
Combien avez vous de capitaine pour le championnat par equipes? Sebastien Marez
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-10 10:52:11)
Team championship
Très exactement 3... (en me comptant :)) C'était prématuré de toutes manières, et il faudrait que je réfléchisse à une autre approche. Cela dit, je ne suis effectivement pas certain de la nécessité d'une telle compétition, les échecs par correspondance s'y prêtant sans doute moins. A suivre...
Sebastien Marez (2006-06-10 11:53:40)
Team Championship
Je pense que le jeu par correspondance peut admettre un championnat par équipe, mais pas un championnat avec des équipes par pays, mais des equipes composées par les joueurs eux meme.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-13 18:28:54)
FICGS chess world championship 1 & 2
Hello to all.
FICGS chess world championship deadline (2006 june 15) is 2 days far from now ! Here is the scheme, allowing all players who registered to start playing at the same time, without loosing the opportunity for new players to register at a later date :
As 2300+ players will enter the cycle at stage 2, the idea is to start 1st (from stage 2) and 2nd (from stage 1) world championship at the same time. Thus, all tournaments will begin at the fixed date for all players who already registered, then a new deadline will be fixed (probably in august/september), and all players registering late for chess wch would begin a tournament each time there's enough new players in the waiting list, with the condition that the ELO average of these new tournaments be equal or superior (as few as possible) to the tournaments that began on June 15.
And good luck to all... :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-13 21:43:17)
Consecutive world championships
These are 2 consecutive championships, nothing more... and a new one will begin after the end of each first stage (probably each year), so ie. in about 8 months (at the end of this stage) : players involved in the 2nd stage of the 1st wch will play the 3rd stage... and they can register to play the 2nd stage of the 2nd wch too. At last, in about a year the first stage of the 3rd wch will begin...
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-14 08:12:37)
FICGS 1st chess world championship
That's right.
However, it's more like an extra championship, it doesn't change anything for players rated under 2300, ie. a player rated 1700 who register next year couldn't play the 2nd FICGS chess championship since 2nd stage begin... But he could register for the 3rd wch.
The positive points are everyone can play immediately and 2nd wch could be a complete cycle (with a final match)
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2006-06-14 12:08:12)
FICGS 1st chess world championship
Hello Thibault
I don't like your rules. I think it would have been better if all players start in the 1st wch (this time and in future cycles). It would be more attractive for the most players. What do you think is the rating average of the 1st stage groups?
I cannot remember that the 2300-restriction was in the rules when I have registered ...
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-14 13:15:33)
FICGS 1st chess world championship
Hello Heinz-Georg !
It's only a logical extension to the rule that divide the championship in a round-robin and a knockout (for the 8 best rated players) tournament. Of course, there's no rule that fit to everyone, only choices... I hope to make the most balanced ones for the whole site.
By this rule, high rated players have a stage less to play (that they would probably win) and it limits the rating gaps (otherwise it would be more like a cup). In most wch competitions, winners and high rated players/teams are qualified for an advanced stage in the tournament.. A quite common and logical system, used everywhere from football world cup [winner qualified for quarter final] to Roland-Garros [qualifications stage], FIDE world championship etc... 2300 rule is a statistical choice, used in IECG too with more parameters. (nevertheless at IECG high rated players can choose to play the first stage too, but IMO it's quite complicate)
I hope to make it as simple and attractive as possible, believe me ;) Of course (and it is mentioned in the rules- preliminaries) rules could still evolve if improvements are decided by the [future] council.
The only negative point is, indeed, only 2300+ players can play the 1st wch, that is in a way not a "complete" championship. But compared to all other positive points (first, everyone can play now), and as 2nd wch starts at the same time, I think this choice is best.
What I think to do is to send all tournament tables to players who registered on 2006 june 16. If finally there are players who don't want to play it, they'll just have to tell me within days, responding by email. It should avoid any forfeit.
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2006-06-14 14:40:34)
FICGS 1st chess world championship
Hello Thibault!
Thank you for your answer.
Two points:
It isn't sure at all that a player with a rating > 2400 will win his group if he had to play a 1st stage group. The CFC-Ch 2003 has shown, that less than 50 percent of the best rating players (even players with rating > 2600) have won their qualification groups.
In the moment we have about 100 players with a rating < 2300 who have registered themselves for the wch. Their rating avarage is about 1720 (!). Is that right? This means (if I understand your rules) the wch groups of the 1st stage will have this rating (+ or - some points). In these groups for a 2200 player it is nearly impossible (even as winner of a group) to get a tournament performance > 2050 (I suspect that this is the reason that players with rating > 2300 not have to play this stage). After the first stage the distance to 2300 will be greater than before.
I have registered myself and I will play. But I'm not really satisfied with that situation.
Daniel De Noose (2006-06-15 15:17:03)
Not very satisfy too...
Like Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff, when I registered the tournament it was announced as 1st championship and open to everyone. I don't like when rules change after the registration. Secundo, if you only reserve this 1st tournament to players with rating over 2300, you can change my rating : on the "correspondence" chess site chess-mail I'm over 2370. But as I said to you when I began here I want to improve my real rating beginning like an unrated. But if now the rating is so important to play the 1st championship, I prefer to be correctly rated. Hoping you'll change all this and play really the 1st championship with everybody.
My actual rating in "correspondence chess" :
- chess-mail : kasapov (2370)
- echecsemail : danideno (2280)
- echecsnet : danideno (2271; but it is the highest rating of this site)
Daniel
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-15 16:36:17)
Criteria
Hello Dorel and Daniel.
As you noticed, rating is quite important in FICGS world championship cycle (particularly established ratings, obtained from IECG / ICCF or after 9 games finished in FICGS) !
I think these rules are really the best choice in order to designate a world champion. It's more logical IMO to favour players who obtained previously the best results in FICGS and recognized organizations, and consequently a high rating. It takes time, of course. Even very strong players starting with a 1700 rating won't achieve a 2300 established rating before months !
Criterias in FICGS wch are (from most important to least) :
1) Winner of the previous cycle (qualify for the final match)
2) The eight best established ratings (play the KO tournament)
3) Points obtained in the wch tournaments
4) The tournament entry rating (TER)
Of course, there are some provisional ratings that will increase a lot, but it is not possible to grant a 2300 rating to any player saying so. It's already a lot of time gained that ratings from FIDE, ICCF, IECG be recognized.
Finally it is the same in IECG / ICCF : it's very hard to achieve a high rating, it's very hard to directly qualify for a 2nd stage too, it takes months, probably years in email chess...
Now, please consider this, if we start 1st wch at stage 1 : It won't change anything for your play, as the 1st stage of the 2nd wch is exactly the same... 2300+ players won't play before months... and if the rule is changed about 2300 mark and everyone playing 1st stage, probably all games for 2300+ players won't be rated with a 100% result... and at last it will be harder for you to qualify for 2nd stage...
It is a hard work to write rules as fair, balanced and interesting as possible. Rules can't satisfy everyone, sorry about that.
Daniel De Noose (2006-06-15 17:23:38)
It is not the same !
Playing 1st or 2nd Championship is not the same because if you play only the second you can't be the first FICGS champion ! ;-) Secundo, as you explained it at the start of the site, everybody can use databases, computers, ... In that case a 1600 can beat a 2300 if he enters correctly parameters in his chess engine. Because the tournament is not again started you can correct this. After the beginning it will be harder. And what's my rating now ? ;-)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-15 17:51:02)
Candidate and World champion...
That's right, Daniel... In another hand, the 1st wch wouldn't be complete without a final match.
Here is a suggestion : What I called 1st wch wouldn't be named 1st wch, it would be only a cycle that will designate the 1st candidate for the 1st wch title and final match... The other one will be the winner of the 1st wch cycle. And both will play the first final match for the 1st wch title. Thus everyone can play immediately, and you play in the 1st world championship.
I think it could satisfy everybody.. !? What do you think ?
Daniel De Noose (2006-06-15 18:33:39)
Perfect !
I think like this it more equal! Don't think I hope to be the 1st champion (I don't have that ambition), but it's just to have all the players on the same level. Thanks to you ! ;-)
David Grosdemange (2006-06-16 08:44:57)
grrrrrrrr
au départ le championnat devait démarrer le 15 avec certaines règles , et au final il démarre plus tard avec d'autres règles ........
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-16 19:24:41)
Retard et explications
Bonjour Pablo.
La règle de la qualification au 2ème tour des joueurs 2300+ ne date pas d'hier, et j'avais annoncé une mise à jour des règles. Les discussions n'arrivant souvent également qu'au dernier moment, je dirais seulement : Mieux vaut tard que jamais :)
.. mieux vaut changer des règles non-optimisées avant le début des tournois qu'entre deux cycles... Je le répète, les règles changeront tant qu'elles pourront être améliorées significativement (comme partout ailleurs). Il me faut un peu de temps pour adapter et trouver de nouvelles dénominations pour les tournois (notamment celui qui permettra aux joueurs classés 2300+ de jouer avant l'heure).
Le plus important reste que le championnat attire les joueurs ayant un classement élevé comme moins élevé. Dans les règles originales, de nombreux joueurs n'auraient pas pu jouer tout de suite. Un retard reste un retard, certes... Désolé pour cela, mais je pense que ça en vaut la peine.
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2006-06-18 14:10:23)
FICGS 1st wch (my last try)
Hello to all,
I think it would be better to start our 1st wch with the regular rules (knock-out and round robin)? Players with rating > 2300 who are not starting in the knock-out can start in the 1st stage of the round robin if they want. If they do not win their group they can neverthless start in the second stage (if their rating is > 2300) of the 1st wch. World champion is the winner of a 24 game knock-out between the winner of the 3rd stage round robin and the 3rd stage knock-out.
What do you think about this?
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-18 23:07:45)
FICGS 1st wch
Hello Heinz-Georg.
I can't see any reason why these players would enter 1st stage if there's no real motivation... Most won't play, for sure.. Logical consequence is they won't play before months... That's a pity in my opinion.
I really think we found a good compromise with Daniel, that can satisfy everyone. Thus 1st wch is a complete cycle, that will designate the 1st FICGS champion. Is there really something more to hope ?
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-19 18:42:16)
FICGS 1st world championship
Hello Heinz-Georg.
While watching the wch waiting list, I realized that there could be an improvement more about this "extra-group". So here is the 1st wch scheme (and next ones, without the special group in the first stage), according to the rules.
Stage 1 :
-- Knockout tournament --
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_2__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_3__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_4__000001
with John Anderson, Petr Makovsky, Daniel Cinca and 5 other players...
-- Round-robin tournaments --
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_2__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_3__000001
(...)
And at last, a special and one-time group :
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_M__000001
This will be a high rated group, with GM Nigel Davies, GM Amir Bagheri and the ~10 players 2300+ who won't play the knockout tournament according to the rules. The winner of this group will directly qualify for stage 3 round-robin final tournament (a one-time rule). The others can play stage 2 as specified in the rules.
Thus, only the 1st wch will start on july 1st. I think it's fair enough and finally everyone can play...
Stage 2 :
-- Knockout tournament --
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_SEMI_FINAL_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_SEMI_FINAL_2__000001
-- Round-robin tournaments --
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_2_GROUP_1__000001
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_2_GROUP_2__000001
(...)
Stage 3 :
-- Knockout tournament --
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_KNOCKOUT_FINAL__000001
-- Round-robin tournament --
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_ROUND_ROBIN_FINAL__000001
Stage 4 :
-- Candidates match --
FICGS__CHESS__CANDIDATES_FINAL__000001
Stage 5 :
-- Title match --
FICGS__CHESS__WORLD_CHAMPIONSHIP__000001
... if there's a world champion and if he defends his title. Consequently we won't have a stage 5 this time, but as it could happen again in the future...
That's all folks !
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2006-06-19 20:29:55)
FICGS 1st world championship
Hello Thibault,
thank you for your answer. Even I have understood this now. I have always missed the knock-out tournaments in the postings. It wasn't clear to me (and I was probably the only one ...) whether these tournaments take place also.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-06-27 16:58:03)
FICGS world chess championship
A minor update in the rules that fixes many problems for future wch cycles... Nothing has changed in the rules for the 1st cycle that begins in 4 days, changes only concern next cycles, with the extension of the one-time rule mentioned above.
The equation was :
- No confusion with the cycles when entering the waiting list (2300+ players qualified for 2nd stage of the previous cycle is too confusing).
- Avoiding tournaments with too big rating gaps (and encourage high rated players to participate)
- The formula combining knockout tournament, round-robin cycle (so that everyone can play wch, with no more than 5 stages), and the final 2 players matches in the last stages.
- Making it as understable as possible...
It is now mentioned in the rules that 2300+ players will play 1st stage in high rated groups (ratings superior or equal to 2300). Winners of such groups (same criterias) will be qualified for the 3rd stage round-robin tournament, the others will play 2nd stage.
As all games are played with rapid time controls, a new cycle will probably begin every 6 months !
Wayne Lowrance (2006-06-28 19:31:18)
Ficgs chess world championship 1&2
here is easy qurestion. I a 1800 + player at july 1 (2250+ at other correspondence cites). Now the easy question. If I should win all my rounds, will I or will I not be overall world champion. Not likely, but a nice goal to think about. I am not used to losing tournaments, never have yet, anywhere
John Knudsen (2006-07-01 17:17:01)
Format For Championship?!
8 games with 1 player at one time?! That is rather unusual, to say the least. I have never heard of such a thing... What is the reasoning behind that? John
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-01 17:20:35)
1st FICGS chess championship started !
Hello to all.
As you may have noticed, 23 new tournaments just started :
http://www.ficgs.com/category__ficgs__chess__wch.html
4 matchs (quarter final) started in the knockout tournament
QF 1 : John Anderson (SM) - Farit Balabaev (GM)
QF 2 : Daniel Cinca - Peter Schuster (SM)
QF 3 : Gilles Hervet (SM) - Gino Figlio (IM)
QF 4 : Petr Makovsky (SM) - John Knudsen (SM)
19 tournaments (groups) started in the round-robin cycle, 17 tournaments with an elo average between 1672 and 1732 (16 tournaments of 17 are in a 32 points range), and 2 "group M" with an elo average about 2390.
All round-robin tournaments are groups of 7 players as it was the best way to make it fair.
I wish you all good games and have fun :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-01 17:44:41)
Format For Championship
Hello John.
After all, if it wasn't unusual, the interest would be lower for sure... :)
So you noticed, the 8 players with the highest established correspondence chess ratings play a pure knockout tournament.
I thought about this format a long time ago (and a long time). Combining a knockout tournament (more "spectacular") and a round-robin cycle (everyone can play, no more than 5 cycles) gather together the advantages of both. It is one of the reasons I made FICGS... I think pure knockout or pure round-robin wch cycle is not efficient enough for chess championships.
The other thing you'll notice in the rules : "The special rule is that in case of equality (4-4), the winner is the player with the strongest tournament entry rating if all games are draw, the player with the lowest tournament entry rating if not all games are draw. The winner is qualified for the next stage."
This rule (in case of equality in the round-robin tournaments, the player with the strongest TER is qualified too) is another way to avoid short draws... It may sound strange at a first sight, but I really think it's fair enough and a good way to find most probably the really strongest players in the last stages. Anyway, it's amazing for sure :)
The FICGS chess wch rules :
http://www.ficgs.com/membership.html#tournament
John Knudsen (2006-07-04 05:31:49)
Symmetrical games
This format (8 games against the same player at once) is really strange and not normal at all, IMHO. Don't get me wrong - I am enjoying my games. I would not recommend this format for future versions of the quarter-final. Most strong players that I know would not even consider playing in this kind of format for one minute. Better to have a RR, with X number of players advancing from that. If you wish to make the championship attractive to stronger players, you won't want to repeat this format in the future. John
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-04 12:02:45)
triche et fair-play
Bonjour Henri-Louis.
Encore une fois cela fait partie intégrante du jeu par correspondance... Il n'est pas rare que les joueurs "gèrent" leurs défaites et victoires dans le temps pour les faire coincider avec les calculs de classement de leur choix. Le problème est identique à l'ICCF et ailleurs, et il n'y a aucune solution ou règle raisonnable pouvant régler le problème. Lorsqu'on a compris que le jeu par correspondance est une question de plusieurs mois, on finit par comprendre que le problème est somme toute négligeable...
De nombreuses parties jouées sur le serveur sont jouées beaucoup plus rapidement qu'à la normale, cela n'empêche qu'il s'agit d'échecs par correspondance, avec la cadence du jeu par correspondance. Diminuer le temps par coup ne changerait absolument pas le problème si tu y réfléchis bien. Quoiqu'il en soit, concernant la partie dont tu avais fait appel, qu'elle se termine maintenant ou fin aout, ça ne change rien, elle sera prise en compte dans le classement de septembre.
Pour finir, je rappelle qu'il existe une cadence "rapide" (tournois rapides, championnat), c'est donc le choix de chacun. Patience :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-04 20:15:35)
8-game matches
John... ??? :)
Vladimir Kramnik - Peter Leko (match for WCH classical title)
Vladimir Kramnik - Deep Fritz...
Of course it is desired... Who will remember the names of the players in the last ICCF final tournament ? Even if ICCF doesn't use this format, and (as you say) serious CC players didn't have the opportunity to play such tournament, knockout format is still desired.
My first idea was a pure enormous knockout tournament, but it's obviously not possible (too much rounds, a time problem), that's why I thought about this combined system.
Now look at the chess world : Many players don't understand why FIDE progressively reduces the number of games and time controls in WCH matches. It is the main reason why FIDE world champion title looses value. Not hard / accurate, not spectacular enough !! ..
What many players (me, at least :)) expect is a classical world championship with a big final match. You may have noticed that FICGS champion will have the opportunity to defend his title in a... 24 games match against his challenger... (!!) That's real fight, that's real challenge and that's what I expect to see from a championship, a big opposition between 2 players, and not a round-robin more or less aleatory, with too much names, not understandable for the most.
Now, as we said on TCCMB : FICGS is not "official" matter, chess is for fun here, but chess must be a show and I'm convinced it is relevant in correspondence chess too. We'll see that ;)
Glen D. Shields (2006-07-08 21:05:41)
Thibault You Have a Golden Opportunity
Thibault - one of the reasons that FICGS has grown so quickly is that you've welcomed input and implented the things the players have asked for. John is right on this issue. I urge you to listen to him. Take this opportunity and make FICGS the chess server that leads the way in establishing logical time rules.
Here are some suggestions for regular tournaments. You and others can build on these:
- 30 days start +2 days added per move
- 100 days maximum accumulated time
- 30 days maximum limit for one move
- 4 weeks (28 days) annual leave
- no time lost or added during leaves
- no moves made during leaves
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes
My recommendation for rapid tournaments are:
- 14 days start +1 day added per move
- 30 days maximum accumulated time
- 10 days maximum limit for one move
- 2 weeks (14 days) annual leave
- no time added or lost during leaves
- no moves made during leaves
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes
I recommend you let the server automatically handle time limit oversteps and make no exceptions. The only exception I would offer is if someone is ill or injured and needs to take an extended medical leave (these things happen). Let there be an option for that player to file an approved leave with you.
Thibault love your server and the hard work you put into it. You and others feel free to critique my suggestions. I strongly urge you to use this opportunity to lead the world in logical time rules. You don't have federations or tempermental world champions to appease. You are the boss. Do it RIGHT. Good luck.
Heinz-Georg Lehnhoff (2006-07-09 00:46:13)
Leave/Reflection Time
Dear chessfriends!
In my dreams a perfect server has the following time rules.
Normal tournaments:
- 30 days with an increment of 30 days/ 10 moves
- 100 days maximum accumulated time
- 30 days maximum limit for one move
- 4 weeks leave per tournament (!) for every year since the start of the tournament
- no time lost or added during leaves
- a move in a tournament during a leave stops the leave in all games of this tournament
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes
Rapid tournaments
- 30 days start +1 day added per move
- 45 days maximum accumulated time
- 30 days maximum limit for one move
- no leave
- all time calculated by a running clock in hours and minutes
By the way, the world championship should not be a rapid tournament.
But how I said these are my dreams ...
Henri Muller (2006-07-10 14:02:17)
Football W.Ch.2006
Rideau !! Italie Championne du Monde !! TRES bien !! Mais quelle belle "sortie" de MONSIEUR Z.Zidane. Sans aucune excuse. Inadmissible ! à ce niveau, à ce stade et comme professionnel!! Quel bel exemple aussi pour les jeunes !! Heureusement que l'Italie a gagné finalement.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-19 18:05:41)
FICGS championship : new groups
A new group just started in the 1st FICGS wch :
FICGS__CHESS__WCH_STAGE_1_GROUP_18__000001
Waiting for another player with a ~1700 rating and a new one will start.
As the rating average of new players significantly decreases, I can't guarantee all players (most with a 1200 rating and below) who entered the waiting list after the start of the tournaments will play this first WCH (late groups rating average should be equal or superior to other groups).
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-22 18:31:31)
What future for correspondence chess ?
You may have noticed this "grave" question on the home page... :)
---------
Are draws and chess engines killing chess game, are the level and play simply standardized by Deep Fritz and Rybka... Is the extraordinary performance by Christophe Léotard at XIX th. ICCF correspondence chess world championship 'chancy', a statistical happening, or is there a place yet for human play in modern correspondence chess ?
"I really believe that Go is destined to take the place of Chess as the leading intellectual game of the Occident, just as it has reigned supreme in the Orient for some four thousand years." (Edward Lasker, international chess master)
"... {it is} something unearthly... if there are sentient beings on other planets, then they play go." (Emanuel Lasker, chess world champion)
It had been said that Chess 960 would replace Chess too. I don't think so...
Any predictions ?
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-24 13:03:25)
Future of correspondence chess......
That's a fine analysis, Glen.
However, it's legitimate to consider that chess at a higher level is becoming much harder so that some of the very best players may stop their career, thinking that it's no worth the energy anymore, for results more influenced by 'chance' in statistics...
How many "super-grandmasters" (2700+) said that each point over this mark represents more and more work ?
It's probably the same (and more) in correspondence chess. I do think that it's still possible to improve a lot ! .. but there's a lack of a higher class of players. That's a pity the very best correspondence chess players (ie. former ICCF world champions : Joop van Oosterom, Gert Jan Timmerman...) retire or at least don't defend their title since they achieved it. Of course it's a lot of time, but result is the top class appear to be bigger and there's no clear champion. That's not good IMO to popularize correspondence chess.
All games need champions. I read recently on a Go forum that the success of Chess nowadays was due to his champions (Go is not popular yet in the west because there's noone to represent it, except a manga [Hikaru No Go]..), Garry Kasparov, Bobby Fischer... That's true IMO, and that's what particularly misses to correspondence chess. Maybe things won't change in ICCF (maybe I should pretend to the board :)), but anyway that's why I chose the knockout system for the FICGS world chess championship, and the possibility for the winner to play a final against a challenger. We'll see...
Thibault de Vassal (2006-09-01 17:11:46)
Go / Weiqi tournaments : New categories
Hello to all.
New Go tournament categories have been created.
PRO category, for players ranked 1 dan and above (Go elo > 2099)
DAN category, for players ranked 10 kyu and above (Go elo > 1099).
KYU category, for all Go players, whatever their rating...
Rules have been updated for the rating calculation and Go championship (a win in a KYU tournament = 1 point, a win in a DAN tournament = 2 points, a win in a PRO tournament = 3 points).
Feel free to post here any suggestion to improve this site for Go game...
(& don't forget this is not a chess variant ;))
Kind regards.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-09-06 15:43:12)
FIDE WCH : Kramnik vs. Topalov
Do you believe it ? .. now it's most probably almost sure :-)
We'll have a new FIDE-Classical world champion in a few weeks !
A reminder : This will be a 12-games match, taking place from September 21 to October 13 in the capital of Kalmykia (whose president is FIDE president : Kirsan Ilyumzhinov himself), Elista. In case of equality, four rapid games will be played, if equality again two blitz games will be played and finally a sudden death blitz game. The prize fund of one million US dollars will be equally divided between Vladimir Kramnik and Veselin Topalov, whatever the result. The looser won't play the next world championship tournament (quite strange).
Anyway, that's a great thing for chess, even if I'm not very optimistic for the next FIDE world championship cycles, particularly if the world champion has to play a knockout tournament, instead of a classical 12 or 24 games match...
My favourite in this match is still Kramnik because of his style, but Topalov is really getting stronger IMO... It will be a hard match !
Any predictions about the result & games ? .. Will Vladimir Kramnik play his Berlin defense in the Ruy Lopez again...
Charlie Neil (2006-09-07 09:02:54)
Krammik vs Topalov
Krammik will play 1.Nf3 with his 1st 5 games with white and as Topalov is dozing off.....POW! It's going to be a tense match. A clash of styles I'd say. But it is all good for chess. We need an undisputed OTB champion again, it can only be good for chess. ( A million dollars for the best of twelve games.....I think I'll go and buy myself a database....:-)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-09-07 14:31:00)
C. Léotard, new ICCF world champion !
GM Christope Léotard (France) just won the ICCF final 19.
He obtained 8.5 points (+5 =7) in a category XV event, which started on April 20, 2004.
He is the XIXth ICCF World Champion !
Many congratulations to him !
http://www.iccf.com
Thibault de Vassal (2006-09-08 17:10:06)
Draughts / Checkers
Hi Lionel.
Thanks to correct me !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draughts
That's right, Chinook is english draghts (8x8 board) world champion, but the international draughts on 10x10 is not solved yet.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-09-08 18:10:52)
Chess tournament : Zero-sum or not ?
While discussing about Sun Tzu's "The Art of War", and the question "Is the best player always the champion ?" (of course not IMO) , I was argued that any chess tournament "was" (actually could be "reduced to") a zero-sum game :
"In 1944 John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern proved that any zero-sum game involving n players is in fact a generalised form of a zero-sum game for two persons, and that any non-zero-sum game for n players can be reduced to a zero-sum game for n + 1 players; the (n + 1) player representing the global profit or loss. This suggests that the zero-sum game for two players forms the essential core of mathematical game theory."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_sum_game
It seems to me that it's out of topic, but I couldn't say exactly why... In my opinion, a tournament is nearer life than game, at least quite far from it. Much more rules, often complex ones, and results that depend on many parameters you couldn't influence...
The word "champion" depends on accurate rules (the best player could finish 2nd, even if he wins all games ie. in an open tournament..), the "best player" depends on general opinion (most commonly through ratings), ie. Topalov vs. Kasparov ...
What do you think ? :-)
Where the discussion started from :
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060907/sirlin_01.shtml
I agree with many points about how to win, but the use of some words seems to be dubious...
I like much this quote :
"I was surprised to see that Capablanca did not initiate any active maneuvers and instead adopted a waiting game. In the end, his opponent made an imprecise move; the Cuban won a second pawn and soon the game. “Why didn’t you try to convert your material advantage straight away?” I ventured to ask the great chess virtuoso. He smiled indulgently. “It was more practical to wait.” "
—Mikhail Botvinnik, 6th World Chess Champion
Dinesh De Silva (2006-09-11 14:23:17)
Re:
Only board games are considered?!? What about some other stuff..... like Bridge (cards) or solving tough riddles (riddles championship)?! Just an idea, of course.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-09-19 18:36:06)
Suggestion : Red boards
Just added new designs (psychedelic boards)... I'll try to make ones dedicated to chess champions and so on :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-09-20 05:05:54)
Chess world champions
New designs !
With photos of chess world champions : Topalov, Kramnik, Kasparov, Fischer, Tal, Alekhine, Steinitz, Capablanca, Botvinnik, Spassky, Karpov & Lasker.
Dinesh De Silva (2006-09-29 13:41:10)
Re:
BOTH Topalov's team & Kramnik's team had clearly agreed to a set of legally binding rules, regulations & facilities prior to the World Championship match up. But now suddenly Topalov's team fires accustation after accusation DURING the match. Personally I think if they can't prove a thing, they should not make accusations. The world likes to see exciting chess games, not verbal fights.
Dinesh De Silva (2006-09-29 13:09:10)
Psycho(logical) games?...........
Silvio Danailov., Manager of the Bulgarian team says:
To all mass media
Ladies and Gentlemen,
After we got acquainted with the ruling of the Appeals Committee of the Topalov vs. Kramnik world championship match we deem it necessary to point out the following:
The ruling in its present form is not satisfactory to us since it practically does not result in any change. Mr. Kramnik will be able to visit the new bathroom an unlimited number of times without being subject to further control.
We would accept the current relaxation rooms to continue to be used provided that the presence of controllers in both rooms is ensured.
When the two players need to go to the bathroom, they should be accompanied by an assistant arbiter.
The checks carried out in the relaxation rooms were made only by experts of the Organizing Committee, whereas our experts were present as observers and only after the second game.
We find it difficult to understand why is it that the accredited journalists are denied access to the video tapes from the relaxation rooms.
The World Champion Veselin Topalov is outraged by the suspicious behavior of his opponent Mr. Vladimir Kramnik who in actual fact takes his most significant decisions in the bathroom.
Despite the above, in the name of the chess game and out of respect to FIDE, to Kalmikia and the millions of chess lovers, Veselin Topalov is willing to continue his participation in the match provided that measures to guarantee fair play are taken.
If the match were to continue, the World Champion would refrain from shaking hands with Mr. Kramnik before the games and would not take part in joint press conferences with him. Veselin Topalov will make statements for the media separately.
We look forward to receiving your response by 14.30 h hoping that it will give concrete answers to the questions that we pose.
28.09.2006
Elista Sincerely:
Silvio Danailov
Manager of the Bulgarian team
Dinesh De Silva (2006-09-29 13:14:25)