Conditionals discussions

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Glen D. Shields    (2006-04-25 16:48:28)
Another Opinion

I have mixed feelings on 'conditional" moves. I agree they save time, but they also can be irritating. Depends how they're sent and who sends them.

We all have those opponents who play whatever Fritz plays. When one gets in a rather simple series of moves, those opponents like to run out a string of 3 or 4 conditionals in a row. Opponents like that are like leeches. You can't get them off your skin without yanking them off and eradicating them :)

Time saving versus irritation. Considering the options, I vote for time saving. The faster I can get rid of Fritz opponents, the happier I am.

Just another opinion :)


Glen D. Shields    (2006-04-25 20:39:39)
Hmmm ... yup

Graham - I think you summed it perfectly. I have no objection to conditionals nor do I care how much time folks use. What I find "irritating" (the word used in this thread) are those situations where you move and ten minutes later you're back on the clock again. Overused conditionals contribute to the "irritation," but hardly are the root cause.


Hannes Rada    (2007-09-09 21:26:43)
board diagrams + conditionals

Not for the imput of my own moves. For scrolling down through whole tournaments it is in my opinion more logic to see first the notation and then the current position on the diagram. I think it is quite hard or difficult to implement conditional moves. The ICCF-Webserver has this feature, but it is disabled. We had a perfect solution on the chessfriend server (silent conditional moves - great for saving reflection time and to speed up to game). Somte openings like the Grunfeld or the Sveshnikov are 'pefect' for conditionals :-)


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-09 21:43:59)
board diagrams + conditionals

I understand that some openings are quite "boring" to play :) .. and I saw conditional moves on Chessfriend server. Why is it disabled at ICCF server ?

Conditional moves is a quite difficult feature to implement, that's true (even more with several games). Also there are many ways to imagine it ! .. But the main question is "would it be fair" ?


Hannes Rada    (2007-09-09 23:00:48)
unfair ?

Why should conditionals be unfair ? I've no idea why the ICCF guys disabled it. But I know that ICCF is a very bureaucratic organisation and even the smallest change on their server takes a very long time and will be discussed to death ....


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-09-09 23:47:20)
unfair

:) .. I saw that in ICCF forum / TCCMB.. But that's interesting anyway.

Conditionals may be unfair because ie. it will be easier for one player to use it in some lines.. anyway this will be discussed to death also :)


Gino Figlio    (2007-12-17 19:53:21)
MPT

Hi Glen,

There is one type of ICCF tournament where conditionals are officially allowed, the money prize tournaments (MPT). Their time control is 10/30 and it was found reasonable to activate conditionals in order to allow players save some time.

Best regards,

Gino


Hannes Rada    (2007-12-20 23:27:22)
Unfair ?

Thibault, Why do you think conditionals are unfair ? There are some openings which are perferct for conditional moves. For example Grunfeld. On chessfriend I offered my opponent the first 10 or 12 moves as conditionals. And the game really started on the first day with an interesting middle game position (avoiding to enter the boring and well known opening moves step by step).


Gino Figlio    (2007-12-21 19:27:23)
conditionals

Hi Thibault,

I would like to comment on this issue.

While it is true that only one side benefits from a one-move conditional, the other side needs only to add his own conditional string to benefit himself from saving time.

Best regards,

Gino


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-12-21 20:42:31)
conditionals

Hi Gino,

So it's up to the other player, who's almost forced to use conditional moves to save time also. But there are forced lines where only one player has "no choice", that's what I meant. Well, conditional moves could be implemented in many ways, with several lines, a complete tree and so on...


Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-12-22 07:28:28)
conditionals

Thibault, I don't think that time saving is the most important reason to wish conditionals but to minimize the workload of clear moves!


Wolfgang Utesch    (2007-12-23 16:25:30)
conditionals

What I meant with workload is useless and boring work which is unnecessary!


Andrew Stephenson    (2007-12-26 20:08:02)
conditionals

They are a good idea I think the truth of many cc games is decided in a perimeter of a few moves and Wolfgang is right so much boring and unecessary work is involved in getting to those critical points. After 1 or 2 moves with conditionals you could have gone straight to the draw in some of your games Thibault!! Just joking! Please articulate your opposition to the concept a little more.


Thibault de Vassal    (2007-12-27 02:46:21)
conditionals

Of course that's the main & clearest argument and I agree with that. I'll try to search TCCMB archives (I think this issue has been discussed for a while there) to argue better my 'feelings' by experience on other servers. Anyway there are so many improvements to come on the server before that I couldn't implement it before a while :/ .. To be continued.


Garvin Gray    (2008-01-07 18:21:04)
conditional move tournament


Can we have a conditional move non rated tournament to test out the differences as I have never played on a server with conditionals?

Might give some of us more idea of whether to be in favour of it or not.



Marc Lacrosse    (2008-06-17 07:55:59)
Conditionals ?

I know that this has been discussed before...
But I still feel that possible use of conditional moves would be a nice improvement here.
Nothing mandatory : simply the possibility to tell your opponent : "If you play this move my answer is that one". I cannot see how it could hurt in any way but I feel that it may help soften (and fasten) the play in situations like forced suites, exchanges and so on.

Your opinion ?

Marc


Andrew Stephenson    (2008-06-17 09:43:26)
Conditionals

Yes good idea. IMO no need to trial it though could be limited to rapid tournament where time saving is perhaps more important


Hannes Rada    (2009-01-08 19:55:05)
Tables

Hi Thibault, Just a few ideas. I mean 'spreadsheet-like' tables with cells where you can not only see the points, but also the results (1,0, 1/2) between all players. Furthermore on the tournament page I would prefer to see the notation first and then diagram of the actual position. I think this is more logical to see first who is playing and what has been played (the moves) and then the actual position. I think it is also an idea to show only the running games on the (main) tournament pages and to show the finished games for a specific tournament on a second page per tournament. Chess fonts (?) on the ICCF Server looks a little bit nicer then those here. I have been playing now my first tournament on the ICCF server where (secret) conditionals are allowed (chessfriend had this feature already many years ago). And I am a big fan of it. Conditionals can help to speed up to game significantly. Some openings like the Grunfeld, the French, and The Sveshnikov really cry for conditionals :-) I don't see any disadvantes regarding the introductions of conditionals (maybe except for the programmer :-). Why are you against them ? But finally I have to say that I really appreciate playing here. I can imagine how tough and how much work it is to maintain such a server as a 'One man show'. I really appreciate your efforts.


Hannes Rada    (2010-02-24 22:09:15)
Conditionnal moves

--------------------------------------
In many forced sequences, only one side may take advantage of conditional moves to save time, that's not fair and that's the point according to me
--------------------------------------

Thibault, that was your argument against conditionals almost 2 years ago.
However I did not understand and still do not understand this explanation.
I my opinion both players benefit from time saving conditionals.
However maybe you could add an option under player's preferences - "conditionals yes or no" and if both players agree than conditionals could be switchend on for that games.

FICGS is really a great server offering so many different features, other server don't, but missing conditionals is in my opinion a major deficit of this server.
(Some minor things could also be improved)


Hannes Rada    (2010-03-03 18:54:05)
Conditionnal moves

Okay Thibault, I don't want to put pressure on you regarding the conditionals, or to take up to much of your time.
But here is one minor improvement (in my opinion).
Can the tournament pages show first the chess notation and then the chess diagram ? It is in my opinion more logic do present it in this way.
What do you think ?


Garvin Gray    (2012-04-21 16:44:52)
XFCC Play

Surely using xfcc play here would cause a few issues:

1) It is part of aquarium and so would be proprietary software from Rybka
2) As it is Rybka owned software, it would need them to set up passwords and the like for those not using aquarium.
3) Using xfcc play for wbccc has caused enough headaches for the xfcc play programmers. Not sure how keen they would be on xfcc play being used here.

That all being said, it would allow conditionals to be used here.


Garvin Gray    (2012-05-03 13:45:17)
Slow tournament entries

Yes, for conditionals :)


George Clement    (2012-05-03 17:21:48)
Slow tournament entries

Garvin, I'm for conditionals; but the slow players still wouldn't use them.

I still think that an increment of, let's say, 20days is better then the current of 40 for 10 moves. It would force the people that are gaming the system and waiting 25-30 days to move after getting the 40 days to at least make faster moves. They would still have plenty of calculation time. Now they make 10 moves in 10 days. Thus 40 days plus 20 days for 10 moves.


Don Groves    (2012-05-04 13:52:49)
Slow tournament entries

I wasn't suggesting conditionals, just making forced moves when they occur. That game could be several moves along if my opponent would just do that.


Garvin Gray    (2012-05-19 15:24:06)
Second match v Rybka Forum

Hello all,

I have been thinking about this for a while, but I was wondering how many ficgs players would be interested in participating in a match vs Rybka Forum.

We tried this concept once before with limited success from an organisational point of view. From a playing pov, ficgs had little success :o

I am thinking something like this for a format:

1) Time control 30 moves initial plus 1 day increment
2) All individual matches are two games
3) Players are to play in rating order. - RF now does have some kind of rating system, at least for WBCCC participants. I think more of their players have also come over to here, so have ratings here.
4) We possibly could use xfcc play, which would allow conditionals to be used, but might mean all the games are played and shown at RF. - Might be possible to have them shown here somehow 'live'.

So, time to get some interest. Who would be willing to participate?

I am going to post this over at RF as well.


Garvin Gray    (2012-06-01 20:20:07)
Second match v Rybka Forum

I have been informed that the conditional move system of xfccplay can not be removed just for one tournament, so if we use xfccplay for at least half the games, conditionals will be in operation.

I still think we can go ahead with using xfccplay, just that the half of the games that are played using xfccplay will have conditionals, and the ones played here will not.

While it is an issue, it is not a big issue, or a showstopper.

Everyone will still be playing two games against the same opponent. One here and one with xfccplay at RF. I will give a couple of days for feedback. If there is no discussion, I will formalise details and then we will move on to official collection of entries, getting players familiar with xfccplay and then on to the games proper.


Garvin Gray    (2018-01-16 00:52:53)
Conditional chess moves (again)

Ahh conditional moves again. Seems like once a year this topic comes up. Rinse and repeat.

For the record, yes I am in favour it. So please do not take my position as being against it.

This discussion has been held before a few times, but the site does change.

Thibault, what is this sites current capability to handle conditional moves? They would only just have to be just one line linear conditionals.


Kym Farnik    (2018-01-16 03:01:46)
Conditional chess moves (again)

@Thibault ... my offer to assist development is real.
1. Design a prototype UI (probably JS tool to do up to maybe 3 lines of conditionals)
2. Feedback from members
3. Review design
4. Implement and deploy to test site
5. TEST !!
6. Rinse repeat 4/5 until happy
7. Deploy beta
8. Feedback and tune as needed
9. Go live


Kym Farnik    (2018-01-17 00:34:08)
Conditional chess moves (again)

Hi
First thanks for making your position clear.

Yes, JS talking Ajax to a PHP handler.
I have implemented this type of thing in the past.

Even if the main FICGS code is totally procedural, it is not uncommon to build a new feature using an OO module, and in time either run old and new code in parallel. Or... migrate all the code to a new OO framework over time.

The play move and add conditionals interface would need to be made JS and redesigned. The back end would I expect have a game/move/conditional validator function.
There are plenty of JS chess interfaces that could be used as design input.

I recognize this is a major project for a one man team. I'd say 4-6 weeks of full time effort, possibly longer if we have to design a OO framework for the back end. Hence my offer to help as I'm semi-retired and have time.

A good isolated dev and test environment is mandatory. This is not just a simple site hack.

I hope this helps!


Kym Farnik    (2018-01-17 04:44:57)
Conditional chess moves (again)

Messages to the opponent.

On a technical note, I would envision a JavaScript too that would allow:
1. The move
2. Conditional Move Line 1 and response Moves ...
Maybe more than one conditional lines

The whole web transaction, Move + Conditionals + messages are validated client side via the JS.
Then the transaction is re-validated on the server (to stop hacking).
The whole transaction is accepted or not.








 		 
 
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